2016 240 Ballast Setup Question: Valves?

[swatski]

Planning a very simplistic ballast install with 3 sets of this (one each under rear seats and ski locker):


Here is the question:
I'm debating the wisdom of installing electric valves on the vents -- valves would be (momentarily) closed just to start the fill up (to help the bags expand) and then left open. Drains will be up or other side, so no worries about siphoning.

Given that I will be using very large bags, do I need to have the vents closed (initially) to help them expand? Or will a large bag expand and fill up all the way with vents open, anyway?

If I do need electric valves, what are the best options? Power closed or open?
I would need those to fit 1" NPT Wakemakers connector system with no extra adapters.

Does anyone have 3 valves like that FS?


For the sake of full disclosure, I may actually end up doing something like this (below), but the valve question remains exactly the same.


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[Julian]

I have no clue...but I've heard that WakeMakers is very helpful if you call them! My GUESS is you would want to be able to close the vent so the bags shrink back to their empty state, otherwise they might sit in the compartment looking like they are filled and taking up all that space?

 

[swatski]

I have no clue...but I've heard that WakeMakers is very helpful if you call them! My GUESS is you would want to be able to close the vent so the bags shrink back to their empty state, otherwise they might sit in the compartment looking like they are filled and taking up all that space?

@Julian That is a very good point about emptying all the way and shriveling up.

For some reason, Wakemakers do not seem to offer electric valves. Anyone knows why?

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[KXCam22]

Check valve only is best in that loc. The pumps will fill any size bag without issue. The idea of the check valve is to let any air escape when filling but stop air when draining so the bag shrivels up. It should look like a raisin when empty. A huge colorful raisin. Cam.

 

[KXCam22]

For your system I would suggest 3 check valves, 3 pumps and one intake. Simplest and most reliable system. 1.5 in intake, 1 in lines and 3/4 in vent lines since they only flow air and overflow water. The quick connections on the bags are handy to make winter bag removal easy. I will post you my original 3 pump schematic. Cam.

 

[dan144k]

I used 1x1/8" hoses, thought I would get the extra capacity over a 1" hose. Is was a bad idea, all the 1x1/8" fittings basically need to be ordered.

1" fittings available at most hardware stores.

 

[KXCam22]

Easiest is to build a hardpipe 1.5 in intake with 3ea 1 in spigots teed off then go flex hose to the pumps. I bet the 1
-1/8 was hard to find. Cam.

 

[swatski]

Easiest is to build a hardpipe 1.5 in intake with 3ea 1 in spigots teed off then go flex hose to the pumps. I bet the 1
-1/8 was hard to find. Cam.

I like that! but am also considering going with 3 separate 1" intakes. I'm also leaning towards NOT including intake shutoff valves, after reading and rereading your comments.

Would love to see your guys' schematics. Honestly, between @KXCam22, @jcyamaharider, and @dan144k the ballast info here is better than most wake forums.

Distinct from that (ballast builds), has anyone toyed with an idea of keeping the rear bags inflated with some air for muffling the sound, when not in use? I know it would work extremely well for sound deadening, but wonder if there are any obvious disadvantages (other than loosing storage space of course).

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[KXCam22]

Here's a simple setup with 3 pumps. Cam.

 

[Julian]

@swatski I can't imagine a ballast bag making any discernable different to the engine sound....the bags are very thin walled.

 

[dan144k]

@swatski
Remember that I used aerator pumps, so my controls are just power on/off,

Reversible pumps, wiring is more complicated. Basically 12+ to fill and 12 signal reversed empty. ( i think, if 2 wire pump)
And reversible if run dry too long will burn up the impeller, but they will self prime better and suck bags dry better.

Sorry but i have no wiring diagram. However very easy to explain.

Power to the board through fuse and switch (cycling the board power resets all outputs to OFF) and then connect each pump to the correct outputs. The output terminals on the board were tiny, so i ran through a fuse and to a terminal strip. Also I added LED's to visually see if when something is on.

Part 2 was adding the little led display up at the helm for convinience. Again terminal strip made tbis simple.

Terminal strip made wiring easier to the pumps once in the boat and also made it easier for me to label. Also if board ever fails it is easy to add jumpers and make thing runs at terminal strip points.

Remote control was only $30 for 12 relays. I bought 2 and keep a spare in my spare parts box for when traveling with boat.

I actully added my motorized wake wedge to the controls.

Also I access to PLC's and a close friend who would go enjoy doing te programming for me, but I wanted a simple system for if I ever sell the boat.

Another trick. I ran all my 12 volts around tbe boat for pumps and stuff by simply using extension cords and cutting the ends off. Extension cords have tbe abrasion covering on them already. Can even use different color cords for different devices.

Always pull an extra wire or string, then next time you add some you can just pull it through.

If I were to do it again, I would seriously consider just using switches. However I am very happy how mine works.

Almost went with bluetooth control through phone, but 3 years ago when I started builds, I simply did not trust phone reliability. Todays phones are much better, have actully considered upgrading to this, simply for the cool fsctor.

 

[swatski]

@swatski I can't imagine a ballast bag making any discernable different to the engine sound....the bags are very thin walled.

Oh I know, it is a bit counter intuitive. But it is ridiculously effective, just a simple air filled bladder. Although real inflatable sound attenuation systems can get pretty complex.

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[swatski]

Here's a simple setup with 3 pumps. Cam.

Love it. I was thinking of adding the forth inlet for the aux hose and routing it to the top stbd gunnel mounted quick connect like @jcyamaharider did (I think his is actually a beer tap, but whatever). But just weying/teing a line for that maybe a better idea.

I find Wakemakers prices for some of the plumbing surprisingly reasonable. May go that route.

So, just to be sure, filling a huge, say 1,200lbs bag, in a ski locker without an electric valve will be okay? in terms of it expanding fully? worried about some folds and such not permitting complete expansion unless pressurized somewhat.

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[Julian]

The bags in the 242X ballast system have no overflow or breather. They fill fine, but they have to be careful about not filling too close to the max or they'll either burn out the pump or blow the bag or fitting. I wish they'd included overflows so you could always fill to the max!

I'd love to see someone make a rotating "scoop" fitting through the bottom of the boat that could be added as aftermarket....then use the foward momentum of the boat to fill the bags super fast! Then when done filling, a valve closes and the fitting rotates to turn backwards (so eliminate the drag) Some of the wake boats do this with a bigger scoop...they have 45 second fill times!

http://www.mmwatersports.com/centurion/centurion-technology/ramfill-ballast/

 

[swatski]

The bags in the 242X ballast system have no overflow or breather. They fill fine, but they have to be careful about not filling too close to the max or they'll either burn out the pump or blow the bag or fitting. I wish they'd included overflows so you could always fill to the max!

I'd love to see someone make a rotating "scoop" fitting through the bottom of the boat that could be added as aftermarket....then use the foward momentum of the boat to fill the bags super fast! Then when done filling, a valve closes and the fitting rotates to turn backwards (so eliminate the drag) Some of the wake boats do this with a bigger scoop...they have 45 second fill times!

http://www.mmwatersports.com/centurion/centurion-technology/ramfill-ballast/

Well, I'm not surprised Yamaha OEM ballast bags have no overflow valves... I will leave it at that. There are enough other more serious issues w/Connext to deal with.

Regarding the ram fill-up, JBs have pumps that can super easily be tapped for water, the boat does not even need to be moving, so no need for a rotating scoop. An electric ball valve could be used to open/close on demand, there are two obvious super easy options:

1. tap into the strainer on the side of the pump (similar to how @SamCF routed his intake for the aftermarket supercharger in a 192)

(or use several other ways to tap into water under pressure there, such as with the pilot rooster tail in jet skis)

2. even simpler, use the cooling water pilot hose/pisser to route water to your bags on demand, albeit that water may be too warm under certain circumstances, so 1. is probably a better option

I know that several here toyed with the idea, and I think it is pretty attractive. However, I decided not to go that route.

There is something about the predictability and consistency of a well designed, dedicated, electric pump system that is very appealing. The "real" wake boat manufacturers have to come up with new gadgets all the time, but most of those novel gizmos do not stay around for too long. Or even major devices -think of hard tanks. Or Tige whail tail platform. And so on.

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[dan144k]

In the cooler months you could connent your ballast bags to the heated engine cooling pisser line. Just let them trickle out the bag overflows continuosly. Add a little warmth inside the boat.

 

[dan144k]

What fitting and hose type are people mounting thru the fiberglass hull, for connecting a hose and filling extra bags inside the boat?

 

[swatski]

What fitting and hose type are people mounting thru the fiberglass hull, for connecting a hose and filling extra bags inside the boat?

@KXCam22 uses 1" automotive heater hose from a secret source, I'm thinking of going with the Wakemakers bronze intake(s) and their premium hose, which I think is like $1.29 per ft. Seriously thinking of 3 or 4 separate intakes and going 1" in everything. But need to dive inside the stern one more time to confirm all locations. I may of course just chicken out and drill just one hole, or none, and keep throwing my aerator pumps overboard, LOL.

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[swatski]

Okay, one more question before I start taking the plunge. Has anyone considered a (low level psi) pressure/vacuum gauge to monitor bags' fill-up status? Analog or remote.

Low level psi Boost/Vacuum gauge. Colors welcome! LOL.

Kind of hard to find gauges that would be ideal, but I am thinking even simple analog low pressure gauges could be very helpful to monitor the level. Or a remote switch operated by pressure or a paddle tripped inside a compartment as the bags fill up.

The more I think about it, the more I am leaning towards a very simple "linear" system operated by separate switches, not integrated into a screen controlled system.

I think I will start with 3 parallel "intake <--> reversible pump <--> bag" modules w/ 1" piping.
Take it from there adding vents, valves, and (maybe) timer or pressure based controls as I see fit, after I see it perform.

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[KXCam22]

Thats what i have. Cam