Amplifier Gain and Equalizer Questions

[Johnboat]

Hey everyone, I could use some help from someone who knows there way around amplified systems.
When I adjust the gains on my amps, are my Equalizer settings at 0? If so, why.
If I set the gains on the amp then adjust the Equalizer, Will that alter the gains I just set? Can this cause clipping? If so, what's the best method to adjust for this?
Do I set the Equalizer then adjust the Amp gains? Many have said this is wrong. Yet I don't understand why.
What is the correct method of setting both the amp and EQ without risk of damage?

I know how to set the amp gains with a multimeter Volts = sq root of watts x Ohms. And I know how to use a Oscilloscope and read it for clipping.

 

[212s]

When I adjust the gains on my amps, are my Equalizer settings at 0? If so, why.

Yes. This will give the cleanest and most accurate sound.

If I set the gains on the amp then adjust the Equalizer, Will that alter the gains I just set? Can this cause clipping? If so, what's the best method to adjust for this?

Yes any setting above zero will increase the signal level and increase the chance of driving the amps into clipping. Good speakers do not need EQ to sound good and EQ's introduce distortion which is why I refuse to use them. I use placement and room positioning for my home theater. For boats I keep it clean and simple as the open air of a boat is about the worst environment for creating a sound field.

What is the correct method of setting both the amp and EQ without risk of damage?

There is no perfect way to do this - there's ALWAYS the risk of damage when cranking up tunes unless you de-tune the gain so it can't be too loud (this is what Yamaha does with their stock systems so they don't get calls for service because 100% wasn't loud enough). You need to learn to hear when the amps are straining and turn it down. If you have the tunes cranked, you need to listen and make sure the music and source are not over-driving the amps.

However, if you insist on using EQ, set it how you want then turn up the gain using your meter to measure. That will not prevent clipping though.

 

[Johnboat]

Yes. This will give the cleanest and most accurate sound.

Yes any setting above zero will increase the signal level and increase the chance of driving the amps into clipping. Good speakers do not need EQ to sound good and EQ's introduce distortion which is why I refuse to use them. I use placement and room positioning for my home theater. For boats I keep it clean and simple as the open air of a boat is about the worst environment for creating a sound field.

There is no perfect way to do this - there's ALWAYS the risk of damage when cranking up tunes unless you de-tune the gain so it can't be too loud (this is what Yamaha does with their stock systems so they don't get calls for service because 100% wasn't loud enough). You need to learn to hear when the amps are straining and turn it down. If you have the tunes cranked, you need to listen and make sure the music and source are not over-driving the amps.

However, if you insist on using EQ, set it how you want then turn up the gain using your meter to measure. That will not prevent clipping though.

212s, thanks for explaining this in detail. I have asked several people and all I got was conflicting yes or no answers. The EQ im referencing is built into my head unit (Kicker KMC4). If I set the internal EQ to 0, Should I use the gains on the amp to adjust sound levels between speakers? By that I mean, set gains to desired voltage reading and then turn them "down only" to adjust for sound quality?

If your interested in my set up or have any suggestions Im all EARS...
This is my current plan and equipment
Equipment:
Kicker KMC4 head unit
4 x Kicker 6.5 coaxial 4 ohm 50W RMS, in stock locations
2 x Kicker 8" coaxial 4 ohm 150W RMS, mid ship by captain and copilot seats
1 x Kicker 10" sub tube 2 ohm 400W RMS, under captains seat facing stern to bow
2 x Clarion XR5520 5 channel amps under the helm. This amp is probably underrated. I've seen youtube videos of the previous version Clarion amp dynoing substantially more power. That amp averaged of 20 -30% more power than it was rated. I figure if I stick with most of the labeled ratings to do my math, I won't max out the amps.
Clarion XR5520 specs

• 95 Watts × 4 Channels + 320 Watts x 1 Continues @ 2-Ohms
• 55 Watts × 4 Channels + 200 Watts x 1 Continues @ 4-Ohms
• 180 Watts × 2 Channels Continues @ 4-Ohms Bridged + 200 Watts x 1 Continues @ 4-Ohms

Future equipment - Kicker 6.5 coaxial in cans installed behind bimini. I believe this was your idea from another thread. And maybe another 10" sub if needed.

Plan:
Amp #1
Wire 2 - 4 ohm 6.5 coaxial speakers in parallel to channel #1 drawing 95W @ 2ohms
Wire 2 - 4 ohm 6.5 coaxial speakers in parallel to channel #2 drawing 95W @ 2ohms
Channel #3 & #4 left open for future growth.
Wire 1 - 2 ohm 10" sub to channel #5 drawing 320 watts @ 2 ohms.

Amp#2
Wire 1 - 4 ohm 8" coaxial speaker to channel #1 & #2 brigged drawing 180W @ 4 ohms.
Wire 1 - 4 ohm 8" coaxial speaker to channel #3 & #4 brigged drawing 180W @ 4 ohms. I will probably tune the 8's down to 150W RMS.
Channel #5 open for future growth.

The only channel Im slightly concerned about clipping is the #5 sub channel on amp #1. I've heard the Kicker sub wants lots of power. Im going to use the Oscilloscope to find my maximum parameters on this channel.

 

[Cambo]

Some more info will help what type of eq are you using what type of amp and head unit

I think the biggest mistake people do with the boat audio systems is not using an eq or even two. These are not so important in car audio but the free air application in a boat and speakers that can easily be 20 feet apart and projecting music in different areas and directions then they become much more important and you can actually gain better output by controlling the power delivery to different speakers.

When you mention gain are you questioning the control knobs . On the two eqs below one is listed as volume the other Main

 

[Cambo]

We must have been typing at the same time now I see your system posted above . You don't have a separate EQ just the eq settings... a seperate eq would help your system and give you more control at your finger tips.

 

[Adrian @ JB Solutions]

Yes. This will give the cleanest and most accurate sound.

Yes any setting above zero will increase the signal level and increase the chance of driving the amps into clipping. Good speakers do not need EQ to sound good and EQ's introduce distortion which is why I refuse to use them. I use placement and room positioning for my home theater. For boats I keep it clean and simple as the open air of a boat is about the worst environment for creating a sound field.

There is no perfect way to do this - there's ALWAYS the risk of damage when cranking up tunes unless you de-tune the gain so it can't be too loud (this is what Yamaha does with their stock systems so they don't get calls for service because 100% wasn't loud enough). You need to learn to hear when the amps are straining and turn it down. If you have the tunes cranked, you need to listen and make sure the music and source are not over-driving the amps.

However, if you insist on using EQ, set it how you want then turn up the gain using your meter to measure. That will not prevent clipping though.

Come man, I'd expect you to know better on this!

Even great speakers need EQs. That is how you win SQ comps. You won't find a single high-end 12v car install without an EQ in use. Speakers react different to different environments, no speaker is perfect. With that being said you should never boost an EQ, only cut. This is where most people get into trouble when they boost and then cause clipping.

Even in home theater your a still limited with your room and materials. At the very least for a great system you need to introduce some time alignment.

 

[Farny]

Come man, I'd expect you to know better on this!

Even great speakers need EQs. That is how you win SQ comps. You won't find a single high-end 12v car install without an EQ in use. Speakers react different to different environments, no speaker is perfect. With that being said you should never boost an EQ, only cut. This is where most people get into trouble when they boost and then cause clipping.

Even in home theater your a still limited with your room and materials. At the very least for a great system you need to introduce some time alignment.

All this is way above my pay grade ?

 

[212s]

212s, thanks for explaining this in detail. I have asked several people and all I got was conflicting yes or no answers. The EQ im referencing is built into my head unit (Kicker KMC4). If I set the internal EQ to 0, Should I use the gains on the amp to adjust sound levels between speakers? By that I mean, set gains to desired voltage reading and then turn them "down only" to adjust for sound quality?

Ok that's different from what I thought you were doing...so yes, tune it with EQ flat or zero. Then adjust down to fine tune if you want.

The only channel Im slightly concerned about clipping is the #5 sub channel on amp #1. I've heard the Kicker sub wants lots of power. Im going to use the Oscilloscope to find my maximum parameters on this channel.

If tuned properly, your 320w should be plenty. If you're a bass-head, then it won't be enough and you'll want a second sub.

The only real issue I see is the 8" speakers are going to pound the music and drown out your 6.5's to some degree - you won't hear them well unless you're sitting near them. Personally I would have gone all 6.5's and go with 8" towers or a sound bar to project the sound out the back.

 

[212s]

Come man, I'd expect you to know better on this!

I don't use EQ to alter the soundfield intended by the recording engineer. Proper speaker selection and placement does the rest.

 

[212s]

All this is way above my pay grade ?

Mine too...we need raises!

 

[Adrian @ JB Solutions]

I don't use EQ to alter the soundfield intended by the recording engineer. Proper speaker selection and placement does the rest.

Recording is done in a specialized room. 12v certainty can’t recreate that. At home most people don’t have it either.

 

[Johnboat]

We must have been typing at the same time now I see your system posted above . You don't have a separate EQ just the eq settings... a seperate eq would help your system and give you more control at your finger tips.

Man your audio system is nice. Im taking a more simplistic (set it and forget it) approach. besides, I would constantly be fiddling with all those blue LED backlit knobs. With my A.D.D it would be like a moth to a bug zapper.
After looking in to my head unit, I discovered it has the capabilities to utilize 3 zones, a 60hz 250 hz 1 Khz 3 khz 8 khz EQ and a HPF 50hz 80hz 120hz. I don't know what any of that that means, but I'm gonna google it.

 

[Johnboat]

All this is way above my pay grade ?

Mine too.

 

[Johnboat]

Ok that's different from what I thought you were doing...so yes, tune it with EQ flat or zero. Then adjust down to fine tune if you want.

If tuned properly, your 320w should be plenty. If you're a bass-head, then it won't be enough and you'll want a second sub.

The only real issue I see is the 8" speakers are going to pound the music and drown out your 6.5's to some degree - you won't hear them well unless you're sitting near them. Personally I would have gone all 6.5's and go with 8" towers or a sound bar to project the sound out the back.

My 8" speakers are still in the box and can easily be returned. I Haven't drilled holes yet.
Currently, I have the 4 Kicker 6.5s in the stock locations with only the head unit pushing 25W RMS too them. This was a huge improvement over stock. But still not loud enough to hear while the boat is at cruising speed. Honestly, at 25 MPH from the captain's seat, I can barely tell what song is playing. I was hoping the 8" speakers placed in the middle of the boat would spread out the sound and mix with the front and rear 6.5s. But you make a good point, the 8" speakers are getting 3X the RMS watts as the 6.5s. If I put the 8" on their own zone will that allow me to adjust them individually?

 

[212s]

3 zones

Probably front rear and sub?

HPF 50hz 80hz 120hz

The EQ you can play with to find your preference. The HPF is another high pass filter to cut anything below those settings. Unless the head unit has a sub lineout, don't worry about the HPF on the head unit, leave it off - the amps can be set to filter and then you'll be sure to get sub frequencies passed properly.

 

[212s]

If I put the 8" on their own zone will that allow me to adjust them individually?

Yes but then you lose the benefit of their higher and stronger output and might as well have 6.5's in there. One of the biggest benefits of running 7" or 8" speakers is the added output in both volume and bass frequencies. If you're running a sub it can negate much of that benefit.

I just noticed in your previous post you mentioned:
1 x Kicker 10" sub tube 2 ohm 400W RMS, under captains seat facing stern to bow
Does that mean the tube fits under the seat ok?

 

[Johnboat]

Unless the head unit has a sub lineout, don't worry about the HPF on the head unit, leave it off

My head unit does have a sub line out. should I learn to use the HPF for the other speakers or just not worry about it?

Yes but then you lose the benefit of their higher and stronger output and might as well have 6.5's in there. One of the biggest benefits of running 7" or 8" speakers is the added output in both volume and bass frequencies. If you're running a sub it can negate much of that benefit.

I just noticed in your previous post you mentioned:
1 x Kicker 10" sub tube 2 ohm 400W RMS, under captains seat facing stern to bow
Does that mean the tube fits under the seat ok?

The sub will not fit under the stock seat. I ordered an adjustable seat post that adjust between 12" - 18". This will serve two purposes, 1st it will allow room for the sub and 2nd it will boost me up enough that I won't be staring at the windshield frame.

 

[212s]

My head unit does have a sub line out. should I learn to use the HPF for the other speakers or just not worry about it?

You can use the HPF on the head unit and the amps, they both do the same thing, cut sub bass from your 6.5's to save power and let the speakers perform cleanly. You can set HPF on the head unit at 80hz and then set the amps HPF at the lowest setting. Set the sub lineout to 80hz as well so when the deep bass of the speakers fades, the sub picks it up. Try googling for tuning amp high pass filter to learn more about why you should use them.

The sub will not fit under the stock seat. I ordered an adjustable seat post that adjust between 12" - 18". This will serve two purposes, 1st it will allow room for the sub and 2nd it will boost me up enough that I won't be staring at the windshield frame.

That works!

 

[Johnboat]

Should I be concerned with the output wire size on these amps? The amps come with pre wired inputs and outputs. I find it hard to believe that this tiny little wire can handle 320W RMS or 25.29 Volts going to my sub. I don't have any wire this small to extend to my speakers. I was going to use 10g for the sub and 12g for everything else.

 

[Adrian @ JB Solutions]

10g is super over kill at 320w. They designed it that way so it should be fine. I wouldn't spend the extra on 12gauge unless running 125-150watts+ to all the speakers. 16 is plenty fine.