Cleaning out my fuel tank. Has anybody done this yet?

[itsdgm]

So here's the back story. I have an 07 AR210 that I bought in 08 with less than 20 hours on it. I live in Southern California and store my boat outside, covered, trailer jacked all the way up, drain plugs out and next to my house. To this point, the boats been more reliable than any watercraft I've ever owned.

I've always stored it (and my previous boat) with about half a tank of fuel (treated with stabil and ring free). I tried storing it with a full tank a few years ago and when the weather heated up it overflowed which resulted in slight damage to some of the graphics.

Over the winter I get in the boat about once a month to check for water inside and I fire up the engines to make sure that everything still runs. Here's a unique situation that I ran into this off season (at least as detailed as I can remember it) and what I've done so far to fix it. I'll update this as I continue to work on it.

1. Back in August I used the boat for the last time of the 2014 season. I cleaned the boat, flushed the engines and stored the boat covered for the winter.

2. September & October. Checked the boat and fired up the engines without issue.

3. Sometime in November I attempted to start the engines with no success. The engines would turn over but not fire. Initially I thought that it could be a safety switch so I exercised them. Still no luck.

4. Next attempt (probably a week later), I thought maybe the cause was a weak battery. So I used a different battery that I know was fully charged. Still, the engines wouldn't fire.

5. Over the next several weeks, I made several different attempts to start the engines. I tried disconnecting and reattaching all safety switches, bypassing my battery switch, securing all battery connections and of course changing the plugs (which all looked normal). Still it would only crank, maybe kick for half a second and not fire.

6. Next attempt. Armed with a laptop and YDS I scanned both engines, tested all injectors and COPS. Everything including voltage while attempting to start looked normal. Still no success.

At this point it seemed that the obvious remaining variable that could affect both engines was the fuel. I had suspected it all along, but only wanted to empty the tank as a last resort.

I was tempted to add five gallons of fresh fuel to the tank in an effort to "freshen up" the fuel. But I was hesitant to do that because if the fuel was bad it would leave me with 20 gallons of bad fuel instead of the estimated 13-15 that I believed to be in the tank based on my fuel log. At this point I wasn't sure what I'd be able to do with all of that bad gas.

For some reason, possibly to check my fuel gauge accuracy (or By some act of divine intervention ) I decided to lower the bow of the boat. After attempting to start again (for at least a minute)., the PORT engine FIRED UP!!!! After lowering the bow of the boat all the way on the jack the STBD engine FIRED UP also.

At this point I walked away feeling much better knowing that the engines and electrics were all good and that I know that the problem is somewhere in the fuel tank. I figured that There's probably water at the bottom of the tank and that since the fuel pumps/pickups are at the rear of the tank it explained why it wouldn't fire with the bow raised.

Next time in the boat, I removed the floor cover and took out the fuel sending unit. I lowered the bow and siphoned the fuel out, that fuel should be good so I should be able to run it in a vehicle as disposal. Then I raised the bow and siphoned again. I was expecting to see water in the last few gallons, but I didn't. All 15 gallons "looked" the same. I reinserted the fuel gauge sending unit to seal the tank back up.

So far, I have run all of the fuel through a fuel filter and used 10 of the 15 gallons in my car without any issues. One thing that I noticed while siphoning the fuel was that it appeared that the fuel pumps sit in a slight "pocket" which would aid in making sure that the boat would run until every drop of fuel was used up. This leaves me thinking that my issue is probably a bit of junk sitting in those "sumps" that the fuel pumps sit it.

So as it sits today, I'm going to pull the fuel pumps, clean the tank, clean the pumps and fuel screens and put it all back together.

I would love to get advice from anybody who's pulled a fuel pump and cleaned their tank. It looks like the fuel line connects with a special type of connection, but I haven tried to separate anything yet. Will I need any tools, or any new gaskets to reseal it? Also, what is the best safest way to flush or clean the tank?

Sorry for such a long write up, but I wanted to document this just in case somebody else has a similar issue with their boat.

Thanks in advance for any help.

 

[Murf'n'surf]

What happens if you put new fuel in and raise the trailer jack?

 

[itsdgm]

What happens if you put new fuel in and raise the trailer jack?

Haven't tried that. I would hate to think that I have it solved only to find out on the lake next summer (with 50 gallons in the tank) that The problem is still there. I feel that to be 100% sure that I've solved the issue, I'll need to pull a fuel pump to see inside the entire tank. While I'm in there I might as well clean both fuel pump screens and flush the tank. Then I'll add fuel, cross my fingers and Try to restart.

 

[4x15mph]

I would want to first see if you had spark at the plug when this problem was occurring. If so, you could then try to use starting fluid to see if it was fuel related.

Does anyone install the fuel/water filters on the 4 strokes like we do on the 2 strokes? If so, it might be another option to keep water out of your fuel system.

 

[Bruce]

I believe that our 4 stroke fuel systems are completely unfiltered.

 

[ToddW850]

Sorry to hear @itsdgm . Last spring (beginning of boating season 2014) I had a problem with my STBD engine starting. It turned over, sputtered, tried to start, but wouldn't run. I pulled both fuel pumps to make sure they were working (and primed) and check for water in my gas tank. When I pulled the gas line from the pumps, they were definitely working, because the gas line was primed and spit gas out. Ended up being a stuck valve in Cylnder #3. Here's my write up: https://jetboaters.net/threads/ar210-wont-start-and-rough-idle-update-solution.1279/

With the symptoms you wrote up, my money was on water being in the gas tank, ESPECIALLY after you said you lowered the bow and they fired right up. If for some reason it does act up again and not start, I'd think of getting a compression test done to try and rule out a stuck valve. Although, with it affecting both engines, it would be a heck of a coincidence that they both started at the same time. Sometthing to rule out though.

Good Luck and I'll continued to monitor and tell you everything I saw and did on mine if needed.

 

[Scottintexas]

Do you have a manual for it ? I looked at my 07 230 manual and there are a couple of quick connects and a hose clamp that may have to be cut,

very strange it affected both engines having separate fuel pumps, please keep us updated,

 

[Big Shasta]

Leaving your fuel tank less than full (not so full it will overflow out the breather though) and starting your engines and idling them on the hose in the winter are 2 of the worst things your can do during long term storage. Probably only second to using 10% ethanol fuel and not treating it. The less than full fuel tank gives moist air a place to make condensation with temperature changes and running it on the hose makes the oil slightly warm not hot and is just enough temp change to make condensation in the crankcase watering down the oil. You need the oil to get hot to boil off impurities like water and you can't do it on the hose.

If I were you, I would raise the tongue jack up as high as possible, take out a fuel pump and siphon fuel out from the bottom of the back part of the tank . A couple gallons should be plenty but move the hose along the back bottom corner of the tank side to side to side to get it all. Pour it out of your fuel can and into a jar and you'll probably be able to see the water layer.

Is the fuel 10% ethanol? Did you use a specific additive for ethanol like star brite startron enzyme fuel treatment? That's really the best thing you can get if you can't get ethanol free fuel (obviously the best solution). If it's 10% ethanol fuel, don't even try and get the water out, the ethanol in the fuel absorbs water (hygroscopic) like a sponge...It will all need sucked out at this point and disposed of.

Excellent information, specifically "phase separation"

http://www.fuel-testers.com/marine_boat_ethanol_problems.html

 

[itsdgm]

Thanks guys for the advice.

@ToddW850 i do remember reading about your engine woes. Hopefully those are all behind you now!!! I'm pretty sure my issue is just junk in the fuel tank. Ive drained it completely and filtered all of the fuel. I was expecting to see some kind of separation, but it all looked clean and most of it has been run through one of my cars without issue. So it leads me to believe that something is still sitting under the fuel pumps. I would be very interested in any advice you could give me on removing the fuel pumps. The fuel lines appear to have some kind of quick connect (like @Scottintexas is referring to). But I haven't researched this in my shop manual yet. So any help that you could give would be greatly appreciated.

I've wondered if It might be easier to just lift the entire tank out of the boat in order to remove the pumps, clean them out and flush the tank all at the same time. So Im open to ideas on that as well.

 

[ToddW850]

No problem @itsdgm . I can't remember exactly off the top of my head how I disconnected the fuel pumps. I remember something being tricky though. I know I took pics. I'll research my pics and get back to you.

 

[ToddW850]

Okay @itsdgm I did find the pics. Apparently didn't take any after pulling the pumps out. Probably because I was more worried about having an open hole in my tank and gas drops.

Anyway, first, and most obviously, I removed the bracket bolts that hold the pump in place. You won't be able to do anything with this until you disconnect the gas line. NOTE: remember to reverse this order. I accidentally did not.




Square black cap pops straight off. Then the open the red ring to get it off.




Next pop out the little blue tab. Be careful not to break it. I broke mine however it works fine when in place.







Once you've pulled the blue tab, it's a matter of pulling the opposite direction here and they'll separate. I believe i may have turned the pump clockwise as well. Once these separate, you can see Your pump will come straight out.



Another option I did not try is unscrew the mount here (arrow).
But I did use a pair of pliers here (circle) strictly for leverage.





GOD I sure hope this is what you were asking for because this took a while to put together on my phone haha.

This is what I remember. Hope I didn't leave any steps out. If I did, I will reply back.

 

[itsdgm]

Thank you @ToddW850 that's exactly what I'm looking for. Today I found the section in the Service Manual that discusses this, but it's always better to get first hand info. The "book" usually leaves out the little details that bring it all together. Thanks again for your time. I'm sure others will benefit down the road too.

 

[ToddW850]

Excellent @itsdgm . I hope you get your boat fixed and back on the water. Glad to help.

 

[itsdgm]

Here's the section in my Yamaha Service Manual that covers the procedure for removing the fuel line and pump that @ToddW850 's pics are referring to as well as cleaning out the fuel pump filter. I haven't removed the tank and pumps yet, but I will update as I work through this.

 

[ToddW850]

You're right @itsdgm , those instructions aren't very clear, or detailed. After reading that, I feel better just winging it when I did mine, haha.

 

[itsdgm]

So I siphoned out all of the fuel from my boat last year and here's how I did it. Hopefully nobody ever needs to, but here's my experience.

First I removed the deck
View attachment 46470
Second I pulled out the sending unit.
View attachment 46468
Then I lined up a few 5 gallon cans on the ground behind the boat. The cans need to be below the level of the tank in order for the fuel to be siphoned out.
View attachment 46466
I used a bulb type hand pump and about 15' -20' of hose in order to get from the bottom of the tank to the fuel cans. The pump needs to be held in a specific position in order for the valves to start the pumping process. Then fuel is drawn into the pump by squeezing the bulb several times then gravity takes over and it continues to draw the fuel out once the pump is turned over. It siphoned very slowly (about a gallon every few minutes), but time wasn't a factor.
View attachment 46467
Something to consider. I "zip tied" a stick to the end of the hose that was inserted into the tank. This was the only way to get it to stay on the bottom of the tank. For this reason alone, I don't think that you could empty the tank by going through the fuel filler.

When I started, I tried two pumps. One of those "ball bearing shake types" and this one. I first tried the shake one and had no success. So I switched to this bulb type and it worked like a charm.

Anyway, I know there's more than one way to do this. I had good results doing it as described above. Feel free to @tag me or PM me if you have any questions

 

[swatski]

So I siphoned out all of the fuel from my boat last year and here's how I did it. Hopefully nobody ever needs to, but here's my experience.

First I removed the deck
View attachment 46470
Second I pulled out the sending unit.
View attachment 46468
Then I lined up a few 5 gallon cans on the ground behind the boat. The cans need to be below the level of the tank in order for the fuel to be siphoned out.
View attachment 46466
I used a bulb type hand pump and about 15' -20' of hose in order to get from the bottom of the tank to the fuel cans. The pump needs to be held in a specific position in order for the valves to start the pumping process. Then fuel is drawn into the pump by squeezing the bulb several times then gravity takes over and it continues to draw the fuel out once the pump is turned over. It siphoned very slowly (about a gallon every few minutes), but time wasn't a factor.
View attachment 46467
Something to consider. I "zip tied" a stick to the end of the hose that was inserted into the tank. This was the only way to get it to stay on the bottom of the tank. For this reason alone, I don't think that you could empty the tank by going through the fuel filler.

When I started, I tried two pumps. One of those "ball bearing shake types" and this one. I first tried the shake one and had no success. So I switched to this bulb type and it worked like a charm.

Anyway, I know there's more than one way to do this. I had good results doing it as described above. Feel free to @tag me or PM me if you have any questions

I hope I never have to do this, but I bookmarked your post just in case - great reference, thank you.