EV / Hybrid Shopping

[TimW451]

OMG, this ended up long. TL;DR: vehicles nice, still want full price, don’t buy if you don’t have to.

My daughter started driving this Spring and will be able to get her solo license this Fall and will be driving to college, so we’ll need a third vehicle. Since used vehicle pricing sucks I thought it would be better for my wife to get a new vehicle and the Outback becomes the “kid’s car”, as my son is two years behind my daughter.

I like the idea of an EV or hybrid so that we’ll be positioned for the next gas crisis And a car that can go at least 20 miles on only electric will inherently save a lot of gas money for us. I’m very fond of a Wrangler 4xe @adrianp89 and somehow we became interested in a Kia EV6 @Julian, so we looked at them this week. My wife would like to look at a Toyota Highlander, but there are none around us.We did look at the Grand Cherokee 4xe also, but there were none to drive.

We liked the Wrangler a lot, and my wife surprisingly liked the High Impact Yellow paint. To me a Wrangler needs a stand out color (and frankly there are too many white ones in our neighborhood). We drove a Sahara model and wavered a little on the road, but not horribly. The road noise wasn’t excessive, and in fact when in electric mode going ~50 mph it was quiet. I’m not sure how comfortable one would be driving long distance, say 1-2+ hours You sit very upright and close to the dash (certainly made the AC feel strong). It can go 22 miles on electric alone, and I think it fully charges in 2 hrs on a level 2, 240v charger. It ain’t cheap, sticker is $64k, and if leased $12k in rebates, but no other discount. Came to ~$650/ month for 36 month 10k miles/year lease. That is withOUT tax and tags. They had a lot of Rubicons, some Willys, but only a couple Saharas. No problem selling them. 2024s are on order.

The Kia EV6 was very nice, we actually may have closed the deal there, but they bungled the sale. It is clearly different than the Wrangler, but it is more in line for my wife, where the Wrangler is me (it’s what I’d have if I didn’t need a tow vehicle). The dealer only had GT-Line models of the EV6, which technically is the mid level. The old base model is gone, so they start with the Wind model and top of the line is the GT. There are many options on the GT-Line, so they are basically the same except for RWD/AWD, color and you can get suede seating. The Wind is mostly different in appearance and driver aid functions. It also uses 19” wheels which gives it more range than the GT-Line which has 20” wheels. (I am so amused that wheel size has such an impact on EV range, if this is what it takes to kill off big wheels and narrow profile tires, so be it.) It seems like all three use the same battery pack, 77.4kwh. They call it extended in the GT’s because it has a heat pump to reduce HVAC load. You sit real low in the car, I felt like I was driving gangsta style. The ride was vey smooth and quiet. The “engine” noise was louder than the Wrangler at idle and cruise. I think it was intentional, so you know it is “on” and isn’t eerily silent. It has cameras to compliment the side view mirrors and brings up the screen view when you use your turn signal. (If that gets people to use turn signals I say let’s make this feature mandatory.) The best feature was Sport mode. This boosted the acceleration, and wait for it, I’ll say was on par to 60 with my friend’s modified Hellcat Durango. The rated range on this is 250 miles and it can charge from 10% to 80% in 18 minutes on a commercial level 3, DC Fast charger (8.4 hrs at home on a level 2, 240v charger). Compared to the Wrangler I thought it was fairly priced at $60k, but is still a far cry from a $30k car. (You can get a great Kia Forte GT-Line for $25k. Maybe I should buy that for the kids?) As I said, I think my wife was ready to say “Yes” until we talked price. They wanted $4k over sticker and said the monthly payment for a 3 year lease would be $950. I don’t think so. As we walked out they were trying to lower the price and offer a demo car. They were supposed to call us and tell us how many miles were on the demo car. haven’t heard from them in the 4 days since.

I really didn’t want to buy anything now, I’d rather wait until I have to in October, so this really was to understand what is out there and then be ready to pull the trigger. I saw the same as @HangOutdoors mentioned with dealers having the attitude that they are in the catbird seat. In the first 5 minutes at the Jeep dealer he was setting price expectations by mentioning all the great deals people have gotten with monthly payments between $750 and $950. Kia was insane asking $4k over sticker. My wife went to another Kia dealer the next day and they were giving $2k off AND covering the $7500 EV rebate you won’t get If you want to buy instead of lease, and they are giving you the floor and cargo mats for free that other dealers add in for $350. Oddly they weren’t amicable to letting her test drive anything. She also went to a Toyota dealer and was completely ignored the entire time.

We did sit in a top of the line Grand Cherokee Overland 4xe at the Jeep dealer, it was the only GC 4xe they had and it was in the showroom, so they discouraged us from test driving it. The salesperson said he thought there was an “adjustment” on the price, but didn’t know what it is. I think he just wanted to keep us focused on the Wrangler, which is unfortunate for him as I think the GC is more in line with what my wife wants, and BTW it is listed in the dealers website for $3,300 under sticker.

 

[Julian]

OMG, this ended up long. TL;DR: vehicles nice, still want full price, don’t buy if you don’t have to.

My daughter started driving this Spring and will be able to get her solo license this Fall and will be driving to college, so we’ll need a third vehicle. Since used vehicle pricing sucks I thought it would be better for my wife to get a new vehicle and the Outback becomes the “kid’s car”, as my son is two years behind my daughter.

I like the idea of an EV or hybrid so that we’ll be positioned for the next gas crisis And a car that can go at least 20 miles on only electric will inherently save a lot of gas money for us. I’m very found of a Wrangler 4xe @adrianp89 and somehow we became interested in a Kia EV6 @Julian, so we looked at them this week. My wife would like to look at a Toyota Highlander, but there are none around us.We did look at the Grand Cherokee 4xe also, but there were none to drive.

We liked the Wrangler a lot, and my wife surprisingly liked the High Impact Yellow paint. To me a Wrangler needs a stand out color (and frankly there are too many white ones in our neighborhood). We drove a Sahara model and wavered a little on the road, but not horribly. The road noise wasn’t excessive, and in fact when in electric mode going ~50 mph it was quiet. I’m not sure how comfortable one would be driving long distance, say 1-2+ hours You sit very upright and close to the dash (certainly made the AC feel strong). It can go 22 miles on electric alone, and I think it fully charges in 2 hrs on a level 2, 240v charger. It ain’t cheap, sticker is $64k, and if leased $12k in rebates, but no other discount. Came to ~$650/ month for 36 month 10k miles/year lease. That is withOUT tax and tags. They had a lot of Rubicons, some Willys, but only a couple Saharas. No problem selling them. 2024s are on order.

The Kia EV6 was very nice, we actually may have closed the deal there, but they bungled the sale. It is clearly different than the Wrangler, but it is more in line for my wife, where the Wrangler is me (it’s what I’d have if I didn’t need a tow vehicle). The dealer only had GT-Line models of the EV6, which technically is the mid level. The old base model is gone, so they start with the Wind model and top of the line is the GT. There are many options on the GT-Line, so they are basically the same except for RWD/AWD, color and you can get suede seating. The Wind is mostly different in appearance and driver aid functions. It also uses 19” wheels which gives it more range than the GT-Line which has 20” wheels. (I am so amused that wheel size has such an impact on EV range, if this is what it takes to kill off big wheels and narrow profile tires, so be it.) It seems like all three use the same battery pack, 77.4kwh. They call it extended in the GT’s because it has a heat pump to reduce HVAC load. You sit real low in the car, I felt like I was driving gangsta style. The ride was vey smooth and quiet. The “engine” noise was louder than the Wrangler a idle and cruise. I think it was intentional, so you know it is “on” and isn’t eerily silent. It has cameras to compliment the side view mirrors and brings up the screen view when you use your turn signal. (If that gets people to use turn signals I say let’s make this feature mandatory.) The best feature was Sport mode. This boosted the acceleration, and wait for it, I’ll say was on par to 60 with my friends modified Hellcat Durango. The rated range on this is 250 miles and it can charge from 10% to 80% in 18 minutes on a commercial level 3, DC Fast charger (8.4 hrs at home on a level 2, 240v charger). Compared to the Wrangler I thought it was fairly priced at $60k, but is still a far cry from a $30k car. (You can get a great Kia Forte GT-Line for $25k. Maybe I should buy that for the kids?) As I said, I think my wife was ready to say “Yes” until we talked price. They wanted $4k over sticker and said the monthly payment for a 3 year lease would be $950. I don’t think so. As we walked out they were trying to lower the price and offer a demo car. They were supposed to call us and tell us how many miles were on the demo car. haven’t heard from them in the 4 days since.

I really didn’t want to buy anything now, I’d rather wait until I have to in October, so this really was to understand what is out there and then be ready to pull the trigger. I saw the same as @HangOutdoors mentioned with dealers having the attitude that they are in the catbird seat. In the first 5 minutes at the Jeep dealer he was setting price expectations by mentioning all the great deals people have gotten with monthly payments between $750 and $950. Kia was insane asking $4k over sticker. My wife went to another Kia dealer the next day and they were giving $2k off AND covering the $7500 EV rebate you won’t get If you want to buy instead of lease, and they are giving you the floor and cargo mats for free that other dealers add in for $350. Oddly they weren’t amicable to letting her test drive anything. She also went to a Toyota dealer and was completely ignored the entire time.

We did sit in a top of the line Grand Cherokee Overland 4xe at the Jeep dealer, it was the only GC 4xe they had and it was in the showroom, so they discouraged us from test driving it. The salesperson said he thought the eas an “adjustment” on the price, but didn’t know what it is. I think he just wanted to keep us focused on the Wrangler, which is unfortunate for him as I think the GC is more in line with what my wife wants, and BTW it is listed in the dealers website for $3,300 under sticker.

Go drive an IONIQ 5....it's the same power train as the EV6. My brother just bought a limited for 1k UNDER MSRP with some accessories thrown in. I drove past the Hyundai lot the other day and they had IONIQs on the lot, so inventory is increasing due to loan costs most likely. The IONIQ sits higher and feels way more roomy.

 

[TimW451]

Went to some new dealers last week. My wife does not like the Wrangler, but does like the Grand Cherokee. Not a lot to pick from, but found a great GC Trailhawk and an ok GC at 2 different dealers, and neither is a dick. Happily (for me) my wife likes the Trailhawk better than the reg GC. The Trailhawk has all the off-road stuff, it can have, like a Wrangler Rubicon with all the luxury stuff of a GC. Oddly passive entry isn’t std, and this one doesn’t have it. To be continued…

All the US manufacturers getting on board with the Tesla NACS plug has made me leery of buying av EV with CCS. Yes, you can use an adapter, but the voltage difference impacts the max potential of the DC fast charger. Fat chance finding an 800v CCS station (Hyundai/Kia 18 min charge) if everything goes NACS.

Good news, Ford realized adding $10k to the Lightning was stupid and dropped the price back down. Too late for me to reconsider. Not gonna do it.

 

[buckbuck]

It's funny you mention that @TimW451 .
With that $10,000 drop in Lightning prices I am back in the hunt.

 

[Julian]

Went to some new dealers last week. My wife does not like the Wrangler, but does like the Grand Cherokee. Not a lot to pick from, but found a great GC Trailhawk and an ok GC at 2 different dealers, and neither is a dick. Happily (for me) my wife likes the Trailhawk better than the reg GC. The Trailhawk has all the off-road stuff, it can have, like a Wrangler Rubicon with all the luxury stuff of a GC. Oddly passive entry isn’t std, and this one doesn’t have it. To be continued…

All the US manufacturers getting on board with the Tesla NACS plug has made me leery of buying av EV with CCS. Yes, you can use an adapter, but the voltage difference impacts the max potential of the DC fast charger. Fat chance finding an 800v CCS station (Hyundai/Kia 18 min charge) if everything goes NACS.

Good news, Ford realized adding $10k to the Lightning was stupid and dropped the price back down. Too late for me to reconsider. Not gonna do it.

The most I've ever gotten out of a DC fast charger is 230kw...way short of the 270 800v would give, but still fast enough that I have to hurry in Walmart if I go in!(20 minutes typically). And I only do that on road trips or when I'm being cheap and getting a free charge. Once free charges are done all my charging will be at home except road trips - which are maybe 3% of my driving.

 

[TimW451]

The most I've ever gotten out of a DC fast charger is 230kw...way short of the 270 800v would give, but still fast enough that I have to hurry in Walmart if I go in!(20 minutes typically). And I only do that on road trips or when I'm being cheap and getting a free charge. Once free charges are done all my charging will be at home except road trips - which are maybe 3% of my driving.

Yeah, using public chargers would be an outlier for me too, and the really fast ones are presently rare, but they were to be the future, and could still be, but it’s all FUBAR now. I would only care on long trips, like MD to SC or FL. Buying a vehicle with that capability and potentially never getting to use it is tantamount to buying a Dodge Demon that hits the max performance on ~106 octane gas and only driving it on the street on 87 octane (BTW, don’t do that).

 

[TimW451]

Slight detour here, my wife was concerned about how expensive the payments are for these $60-70k vehicles. So I proposed the alternative of her continuing to drive the Outback and we buy a new car @ ~$25k for the new driver instead. (I came up with that number as Carmax seems to want $20k min for a decent used car and I’ve seen nice looking new cars at $25k.) She was like, hell no, if we get any new car she’ll be driving it. (Surely you jest! My wife hasn’t driven a car with cloth seats in over twenty years!)

So she went out the other day with my 14 yo son to test drive a Kia Forte GT, ~$25k, that we say when looking at EV6’s; a Chevy Trax at my suggestion (loaded $26k), a Trailblazer while at Chevy dealer (I’m guessing $25-30k), and a Dodge Hornet GT (which is $30k, but we’re at the dealer anyway and it’s the least expensive option there).

She liked the Forte, but she has also only had SUVs for the last 15 years, so being that low was disconcerting, it was also smaller than she’d like. If $25k is you price point I’d recommend looking at it. (@Julian is that what your daughter has?)

The visit to Chevy didn’t go well, but I wasn’t surprised. (I’ve owned more Chevys than any other brand, the vehicles are mostly good, BUT they are the suckiest dealers.) She didn’t go to where they had the $26k Trax, that was too far away. Where she went just got a low to mid level Trax, it was in the showroom and they wouldn’t let her drive it. (Guess sales are really good.) She did sit in it and said it was small and total econobox, from features to materials. Way inferior to the Forte. She then drove a Trailblazer, it was unimpressive and smaller than the Trax. I told her the Trailblazer is the “new“ Camaro, so I guess too small is the right size. So nothing for us at $25k.

We went back to the CJDR dealer (that is just a horrible nam, and BTW, they can’t get the letters in the right order half the time either.) to drive the GC Trailhawk 4xe again, and I said we might as well test drive the Hornet even though it is $30k. I was extremely impressed by the Hornet. It is unfair to compare it to a $25k car, even when those are top of the food chain for those models, but if you could afford the extra $5k I feel you’re getting $19k more than those others (especially if it’s a Chevy!) The interior of the Hornet is like that of a mid $30k car, or better. Soft materials, stitching, touch of chrome/brushed metal accents. I can’t remember if the seats were cloth or synthetic leather, but they were high class for the class. It did not have NAV, but no one buying this is going to want that, they’ll all be using their smartphone on the widescreen display, 10-12”. The only thing I would add is wireless charging (it was wireless Carplay). The Hornet has a turbo 2.0 4cyl and is AWD. Seems like they all are, and are GTs. They also had a GT Plus for $40k which appears to have the same driveline, so I don’t know what’s different, but I’d keep the $10k and buy this one.

But we won’t, wife likes the Trailhawk…

 

[Julian]

Slight detour here, my wife was concerned about how expensive the payments are for these $60-70k vehicles. So I proposed the alternative of her continuing to drive the Outback and we buy a new car @ ~$25k for the new driver instead. (I came up with that number as Carmax seems to want $20k min for a decent used car and I’ve seen nice looking new cars at $25k.) She was like, hell no, if we get any new car she’ll be driving it. (Surely you jest! My wife hasn’t driven a car with cloth seats in over twenty years!)

So she went out the other day with my 14 yo son to test drive a Kia Forte GT, ~$25k, that we say when looking at EV6’s; a Chevy Trax at my suggestion (loaded $26k), a Trailblazer while at Chevy dealer (I’m guessing $25-30k), and a Dodge Hornet GT (which is $30k, but we’re at the dealer anyway and it’s the least expensive option there).

She liked the Forte, but she has also only had SUVs for the last 15 years, so being that low was disconcerting, it was also smaller than she’d like. If $25k is you price point I’d recommend looking at it. (@Julian is that what your daughter has?)

The visit to Chevy didn’t go well, but I wasn’t surprised. (I’ve owned more Chevys than any other brand, the vehicles are mostly good, BUT they are the suckiest dealers.) She didn’t go to where they had the $26k Trax, that was too far away. Where she went just got a low to mid level Trax, it was in the showroom and they wouldn’t let her drive it. (Guess sales are really good.) She did sit in it and said it was small and total econobox, from features to materials. Way inferior to the Forte. She then drove a Trailblazer, it was unimpressive and smaller than the Trax. I told her the Trailblazer is the “new“ Camaro, so I guess too small is the right size. So nothing for us at $25k.

We went back to the CJDR dealer (that is just a horrible nam, and BTW, they can’t get the letters in the right order half the time either.) to drive the GC Trailhawk 4xe again, and I said we might as well test drive the Hornet even though it is $30k. I was extremely impressed by the Hornet. It is unfair to compare it to a $25k car, even when those are top of the food chain for those models, but if you could afford the extra $5k I feel you’re getting $19k more than those others (especially if it’s a Chevy!) The interior of the Hornet is like that of a mid $30k car, or better. Soft materials, stitching, touch of chrome/brushed metal accents. I can’t remember if the seats were cloth or synthetic leather, but they were high class for the class. It did not have NAV, but no one buying this is going to want that, they’ll all be using their smartphone on the widescreen display, 10-12”. The only thing I would add is wireless charging (it was wireless Carplay). The Hornet has a turbo 2.0 4cyl and is AWD. Seems like they all are, and are GTs. They also had a GT Plus for $40k which appears to have the same driveline, so I don’t know what’s different, but I’d keep the $10k and buy this one.

But we won’t, wife likes the Trailhawk…

Yes we bought a Forte GT for my daughter and she likes it, but does wish it had more room for a car seat. If there has been one available I would have bought the GT-Line not the GT as it has more features (ventilated seats etc).

Any EV9s on the lot yet? That is one I'd be looking at....

 

[Julian]

Yeah, using public chargers would be an outlier for me too, and the really fast ones are presently rare, but they were to be the future, and could still be, but it’s all FUBAR now. I would only care on long trips, like MD to SC or FL. Buying a vehicle with that capability and potentially never getting to use it is tantamount to buying a Dodge Demon that hits the max performance on ~106 octane gas and only driving it on the street on 87 octane (BTW, don’t do that).

I've found there really isn't a lot of difference between a 150kw charger and a 350kw charger....but as a percentage of time I guess it is different. Here is some real world data:



68kw in 28:27 (173kw max speed) = 1kw in .42/minute

40kw in 21:53 (133kw max speed)= 1kw in .53/minute

65.4 kw in 26:10 (I think I hit 220kw on this EVGo charger)= 1kw in .4/minute

So yeah....it's 25% faster if you go up to 170kw plus, but there are also lots of other variables I didn't account for (primarily end state of charge in each example). If you go over 80% charging slows down.

 

[TimW451]

Hyundai’s website still shows the EV9 as future. No prod details, pricing, build models, etc. But industry news says they sold 1,300 in June. Probably gotta be in California.

Yes, it ain’t the voltage, it’s how you use it!

 

[TimW451]

And the winner is…

it’s not black, but blue, Midnight Sky.