My latest mistake

[veedubtek]

I'll preface this with some relevant, although not important information. I fix VW's. Alot of them. Have for a long time (20+ years), and I'm quite good if I do say so myself. It's my love, my passion, my career. I buy ALOT of VW's sight unseen as I've gotten quite good at diagnosing most problems by reading the seller and judging what they presume to be the problem, and I know the market and everything about them very well. I don't buy so much to flip/profit off of, but I get off on resurrecting the unfixable and breathing new life into tired, neglected cars.

With that said - I've been venturing more and more into jet operated machinery. Again, the passion and love drives me, but I learn more often than not that I have not spent 20+ years wrenching on these and I'm learning alot as I go. My latest acquisition (a 2006 SX230) popped up on here a few days before Bimini. On ebay, no reserve, so I watched it. Somehow, someway, I remembered when the auction was ending one evening while in Bimini. I rushed from the infinity pool back to Dirk's condo as it was closer and I had the wifi information saved. Beer likely had alot to do with it, but I made it to wifi in time and won the auction for $7500. Took a couple weeks to get the payment settled and get her shipped, but she finally landed here about a week and a half ago? And she brought her good friend reality with her too.

Now, I talked to Jon on the phone multiple times. Texted a bunch. Probably emailed. And of course, studied the description numerous times. I'm not often taken. I've waited what I consider a reasonable amount of time before posting with a hot head, and now my feelings haven't changed much. I'd like to present the facts I was given, and give you most studious readers some pictoral evidence of my findings, and let you be the judge and see if I'm just that naive and stupid.

<thanks if you've made it this far!>

UP FOR AUCTION IS A 2006 YAMAHA SX230 TWIN 140 HP MR-1 ENGINE JET BOAT. THIS BOAT WAS BROUGHT TO ME FOR INSPECTION AND/OR REPAIR. OWNER STATED HE THOUGHT MOTORS WERE LOCKED UP AFTER DE-WINTERIZING BOAT. HEALTH ISSUES PREVENTED HIM FROM LOOKING AT IT SOONER AND WAS BROUGHT TO ME LAST WEEK (6.10.18)

Minor quibble, but I sure didn't expect the boat to have been sitting for years. With a registration expiring 9/16, who knows the last time this thing actually ran. Lie? No. Misleading, I think so. You? Had I known this boat had been sitting 3-4/more? years, it would've changed things dramatically. Again, minor quibble, but bears mentioning.

UPON INSPECTION OIL WAS CLEAN AND NO WATER VISIBLE.

Ok, but maybe, especially since the filters are so visible, mention something about their condition?

SPARK PLUGS WERE LOOKED AT(3 TOTAL) AND LOOKED GOOD AND NEW; PERHAPS CHANGED RECENTLY...

Oh boy. Seriously? Pictured is the order I pulled them out. From cylinder 1-4, starboard engine and then port. In that order. Can anyone tell me which 3 plugs look new?

BATTERY HAD GOOD CHARGE (12.5 VOLTS). PORT MOTOR BATTERY CABLE WAS FOULED AT TERMINAL AND MANUALLY CONNECTED. PORT ENGINE ROTATED ABOUT 1/4 ROTATION AND LOCKED UP. UPON INSPECTED JET PUMP APPEARED TO BE GOOD BUT HAD DIRT BUILD UP. I DID NOT SEE A SWELL MARK IN JET PUMP HOUSING AND IMPELLER AND HOUSING LOOKED LIKE NO WEAR BUT WAS DIRT/GRIME BUILD UP THAT POSSIBLY WAS BINDING IMPELLER. I TRIED CLEANING WITH HOSE BUT DID NOT CHANGE RESULT. MY OPINION WAS JET PUMP NEEDED TO BE REMOVED/INSPECTED BUT ENGINE COULD BE BAD. PLEASE ASSUME THE WORST. NO CASE DAMAGE OR OIL IN HULL AND CASES ARE GOOD AS FAR AS MECHANICAL DAMAGE.
STARBOARD ENGINE RELAY JUST CLICKED. I DID MANUALLY ARC THE STARBOARD STARTER AND GOT NO LIFE FROM STARTER AT ALL. WAS NOT ABLE TO DIAGNOSE STARBOARD MOTOR AT ALL DUE TO THIS; ASSUME MINIMUM BAD STARTER AND/OR GROUND CABLE AND ALSO POSSIBLE BAD ENGINE. KEY DID POWER RELAY WHEN TURNING KEY BUT THAT WAS.

Batteries (neither) had any charge, but that's to be expected. The Perko switch was thrown in the compartment unhooked from anything, not expected, but it's used. I didn't buy a new boat. I know this. One battery was hooked up, other wasn't. I get it, testing. Totally understandable, but maybe I would've taken a little more care and pointed approach to a proper diagnosis. The positive cable where it hooks to the port side ECM box was visibly burnt off (not to mention the ECM box was hanging on the wall with one loose bolt), information that I know for sure I'd be telling a prospective buyer.

Some other things that I'd probably list (particularly if my business was in the jetski/boat parts business so I probably know them REALLY well!). All hose clamps are loose, as if someone was prepping for engine removal. Not like, I'm digging into stuff and happen to notice, but open the engine hatch and all these excessively loose clamps are staring at you loose. Many bolts missing (including at least one engine mount). And, these pics tell a few stories too:






In the end - I mean, I get it. I gambled, I lost. I'll fix this girl up, and I'll enjoy her eventually. But everytime I read the ad again and look at what's in front of me, I'm reminded of just how bad I got screwed. What say you jetboaters? Am I over-reacting? Should I have assumed the worst with the description given? At the end of the day, does it even matter?

 

[Julian]

What pictures were in the EBAY ad? Did it show the engines at all? Did it show the seat damage?

If the seat damage/missing parts etc weren't disclosed I'd contact EBAY to arbitate it.

 

[robert843]

What state did you buy the boat from? For some reason I didn’t think you got it from Florida but I could be wrong. If it didn’t come from Florida then yes I would say the whole thing was a lie as there is no way someone sent that from Florida to another state to be checked out. Seems more likely the person you got it from did the same bought it thinking they would fix it up realized it wasn’t worth it and passed it back off as something it wasn’t. Even if it came from Florida no way someone who is a known seller of these things is putting there selling rep behind something like this unless they are trying to recoupe from a loss.

 

[swatski]

@veedubtek Sorry that happened to you. This is unacceptable.

I remember looking at the ad here in this forum! the ebay link is no longer available - replaced by a different boat/model
https://jetboaters.net/threads/ms-2006-yamaha-sx230-for-sale-ms.18254/#post-312976

SOB totally misrepresented/lied about this boat - clear from we can see above!
Yes, the ebay posting was carefully crafted with pics showing some of the issues like ripped up upholstery and gel coat scratches, but NOT any of the REAL issues (as shown above).

Could he have missed those? Hell no. This guy is in the business of selling boats! He knows what he's pushing.
https://jetboaters.net/threads/new-yamaha-jet-boat-nautica-tender.18253/
The description sounded very honest/knowledgeable, too bad it looks like it was all a smoke screen!

I do not know the law and ebay regulations to know if anything can be done...

But for God's sake - [USERGROUP=3]@Administrative[/USERGROUP] please ban @Jon Gottschalk from advertising here - posturing for a jetboater to push junk, unless he can make this situation right, somehow.


--

 

[Bruce]

@Jon Gottschalk, please share your side of the story.

@veedubtek, sorry this happened to you. I purchased my SX230 from Jon's Father. I suspect she sat in salt water for some time in her life but she appeared to be low hours and has served my family well. The only issues at the time of purchase were a broken transducer and stuck clean out plugs.

 

[Crlos16]

I would contact eBay, and see what they have to say. My wife use eBay to sell items, and items must be described in detail, if something is not “ as described” eBay will contact the seller to make things right, specially if this guy uses eBay regularly.

 

[Jameson Clark]

I'm with everyone else... completely misrepresented. I read the whole post but truly I didn't need to see past the oil filters and spark plugs to know someone was pulling a fast one!

 

[Julian]

Wow...after reading the listing I agree....misrepresented the overall condition.

"SPARK PLUGS WERE LOOKED AT(3 TOTAL) AND LOOKED GOOD AND NEW; PERHAPS CHANGED RECENTLY.."
​

This is clearly a flat out lie! Lets just say for sake of argument that the prior owner changed 3 spark plugs randomly. What is the probability that the next person coming along would randomly chose 3 plugs to look at an chose the SAME 3 that were replaced? (I'm sure we have a statistician here that can give us that answer!)

Clearly should have pointed out that the engines were prepped to be removed (disconnected!)
Clearly the seats are in crap condition....not just a stitching issue! "INTERIOR IN FAIR CONDITION" No way I would ever describe that as "Fair condition"!

That said, the ad DOES say...assume both engines are bad.

• ENGINE COULD BE BAD. PLEASE ASSUME THE WORST
• WAS NOT ABLE TO DIAGNOSE STARBOARD MOTOR AT ALL DUE TO THIS; ASSUME MINIMUM BAD STARTER AND/OR GROUND CABLE AND ALSO POSSIBLE BAD ENGINE.

Ebay may not be much help as their Vehicle purchase protection only covers them if they are less than 10 years old.

 

[Bruce]

This is a terrible situation. It is unlikely that she could be restored for a cost that would allow you to break even and parting out would also be unlikely to recover the purchase price.

Did you buy her from @Jon Gottschalk or “his customer”?

Have you considered trying to return the boat?

 

[veedubtek]

That's kinda what I keep going back to. "assume bad". But so much other misleading information was given to provide hope, and the "diagnostic" work performed beforehand was clearly a sham. I see intentional misrepresentation with attempt to deceive. But, I am the unfortunate buyer (from Jon, not his customer), so I was also worried my perception was skewed.

 

[veedubtek]

Odd, but maybe worth mentioning. I bought the boat in Mississippi. It clearly has a long expired Florida registration. And I have a Michigan title. Just seems a little odd. I'm thinking this thing submerged years ago and has been bounced around from unfortunate buyer to unfortunate buyer for years now, every victim ripping off the next, while the boat continues to degrade.

 

[Bruce]

My boat also started life in Florida then in Mississippi.

 

[PaulyB]

I think before I bid, I would have assumed the worst and figured how much it would cost to repair the worst. From there I would have set a highest amount that I would pay prior to bidding.

Did you ask him any questions prior to bidding? Did you ask any forum members that live close to the seller to check it out?

To me the hull of the boat looks to be in great condition, and he represented the boat to possibly need engines. I saw the eBay ad when it was listed, and whenever I see assume the worst, I assume the worst. I do agree about the spark plugs, they do not look new at all, maybe one looks less old, but regardless, he stated the engines would not turn over and the owner believed the engines to be locked up.

I bought this boat https://www.copart.com/lot/31528447/ for $7,200 believing that it would need motors, I am sure that the one you have looks to be in much better condition.

 

[Murf'n'surf]

I would try to get your money back and take the loss on the shipping you paid to get it. Let them pay to ship it back.

You are being a gentleman thus far and the seller should stand up and settle this the right way. If he shrugs it off you need to fight it via EBay.

 

[merlinjet]

Not gonna go do the coulda, shoulda, woulda dialogue, I'm sure the lessons learned are excruciatingly clear now. Looking forward, I would try to negotiate a refund on the purchase, maybe even offer to pay return shipping to minimize your loss. The hull does look pretty good. Don't think ebay will be much help here, the ad was crafted very skillfully by the seller. Sorry this happened to you, bud; I feel your pain.

 

[Mainah]

I have never had an issue with something I bought on eBay, craigslist, kickstarter, etc. This is because I am over cynical when reading any listing and do assume that every seller is stretching the truth. I am pleasantly surprised at times but better that than the alternative. There is clear misrepresentation intended to mislead and the sneaky "Engines could be bad. Please assume the worst." was to cover a** in place of providing known detail. That is a clear red flag that would make me walk away. Sorry @veedubtek but that is my honest opinion.

That said with the sale complete clear material omissions were made given the rest of the detail along with the other misrepresentations. The sum total of all is an intent to deceive IMO. I am no attorney but if a strong case can be made for an intent to deceive I would hope that eBay will step in.

I am not sure how people who intentionally deceive others sleep at night.

Good luck @veedubtek

 

[2kwik4u]

I had a VERY similar situation with my old Trailblazer SS. The story I got was FAR different from the truck I drove home. I even had an independent inspection done on it, and it came back with a few small issues, but nothing major. I had that POS for 18mo and put almost $10k in parts into it (bought it for $9500), and finally decided to dump it when I found out we were expecting another baby. I couldn't deal with overheating in the summer, no heat in the winter, and no sense of security with a newborn inside. I flew from Louisville to Winnipeg, handed over a certified check, and drove it home. Within those next 18mo I continued to find more and more problems. The right fix was a new motor (would've been at least this trucks 3rd as best I can tell, at 36k miles), so away it went. I thought I was getting a great deal on a "recently rebuilt" truck with low miles in decent condition. Every single seal leaked on that truck. Every single surface had rust on it when I showed up. As I started fixing things I found loose bolts, mistmatched bolts, all kinds of hacked together wiring, clogged heat exchangers ,excessively worn bushings, and other such BS that should have been turned up in an initial inspection. And this was from an "SAE Certified Mechanic" that supposedly worked for the city bus department as a maintenance tech.....I'll tell you right now I'm never riding a bus in Winnipeg......EVER......I felt very mislead, foolish, and as I had wasted my money/time/effort. It hurt my pride more than anything, although my wife will tell you our wallets took a hit too.

My point to all this........What do you WANT to do with the boat? Are you over it and just want it gone? Are you still passionate about it, and want to see it restored? Do you have the space/time/budget to do what you WANT with it. I would've swapped a new motor into that SS had we not come up expecting. I can handle some drama along the way for a cheap/fun ride. Once my budget/time/space/desire was lost, it had to go. This boat is the same way IMO. You bought something somewhat sight unseen, and it's worse than you thought. Is it fraud? Maybe. Is it worth arguing over with ebay/seller/state? Dunno, that's your call.

For me, I would chock this up as experience, and then move ahead. I doubt there is a reasonable financial "save" from this situation. If it was a second boat, and I had the time/space/budget to get it fixed up, I would head down that path. I would make sure that eBay, the seller, and if appropriate, local governing bodies knew about the fraud, but I wouldn't sink a ton of time/effort into that front. I, personally, would take the butt-whooping and move along.

A good friend of mine once told me "education is expensive". He was talking about college at the time, but I've found it holds true for most parts of life. You have to pay to learn. Whether that's with time/cash/relationships, the price to learn good reliable information is typically high. I would wager money your education on this situation somewhat fits the bill you're paying.

Hope that helps. I think we've all been there at some level or another. We're here to help, and if nothing else, read along with a "Damn that sucks dude".

 

[Jgorm]

I always say buyer beware. I check everything out in person. If i bought something on ebay id probably fly out and examine it and examine it. I wish you the best. I got burned on my boat, but now i know a lot about the mr1! Feel free to ask questions about disassembly. If you can do the work yourself you might be looking at 2-4k per engine if they are in bad shape but the heads and block are intact. Or put it back up on ebay with the same language and pictures.

 

[robert843]

See I think the opposite of most on something like this if you decide to keep it you embrace the loss and go huge. You try and get your money back by making it the badest 230 on the water. Spend some cash on a really nice custom interior update the dash maybe with a built in gps is you can make it fit a pair of SHO or BRP supercharged engines custom wrap that thing and just make it so custom over the top that it is worth top dollar worst case is when your done you wont want to get rid of it.

 

[robert843]

Like what this guy did but even more over the top with some supercharged or possibly turbo engines??????

https://jetboaters.net/threads/2005-sx230-upgrade-exterior-wrap-new-interior.9976/