Open letter to Yamaha and a dream for the future of Yamaha jetboating.

[ptwb]

I hope this letter finds somebody that actually cares at Yamaha.


Yamaha, I've been an avid boater all my life growing up with a 15' boston whaler. My 1st boat I bought was a 2000 SeaDoo Challenger 2000 I had for 10 yrs. Then I upgraded to an 07 AR230. My family loves our AR, but at the same time, after 9 years, they are wanting more room and a way to move forward and get something even better.

This is my issue. After 12 years, you really don't yet offer anything better than our AR230.

If I compare a brand new SX230 to our older AR230, please, let's be honest and discuss what have you really done?

1) Not any more seating, if anything, it's less because of that captains chair
2) Basic same primitive engine control. Still can't easily use the throttle.
3) A rudder. Seriously a rudder?

What else? Is your reply going to be look at the upper model boats? You mean the ones that no longer fit in a garage? What's the point of me even wasting my time looking at them since I can't fit them in my garage with your enormous tops that can't fold below 8'?

You've grown a lot, you started out selling smaller, trailerable, and garagable (is that a word?) boats. Your boats got bigger and better, but they still met all those criteria. Then you went off the deep end. There's no reason you still can't make a garageable AR240, why are you being lazy and not designing a better tower than can fold lower? There's no reason the 275 needed to be wider than 8'6" except for what? Was it all about trying to squeeze that walkway inbetween the engines?

I pray and hope that your new 275 model is not a sign of things to come. I would really like to see you put some effort into getting back to reality and more mainstream boaters. The 240s are now 9 years old. I hope you have a nice surprise for us soon.

What I hope to see from you in the future.
1) A return to reality and the basics. To designing boats more like what made you so big in the 1st place.
2) You need to make electronic throttle control standard on all twin engine boats. Seadoo offered this over 10 years ago standard. Please leave the full connext for upper model boats. I don't want your touchscreen for all my boating stuff like engines, radio, etc.
3) An AR240 with a tower that will fold low enough to fit through an 8' door. No connext please!!!!! Even better an AR 240 Limited with that even larger fancier top, of course, electronic throttle control, no connext, and it still folds low enough to fit through an 8' door. I would pay extra for the premium larger bimini tower/top, but only if it will lower and fit through an 8' door. Finally an E model that adds connext.
4) Some sign that you are working to solve grass issues. If you can't post a demo video of your boats going through a football field size patch of grass in the keys at both crusing and idle speeds, I have no choice but to go back to a prop.
5) A LOT more effort into fuel economy and sound improvements. Especially low speed fuel economy.
6) NO MORE CAPTAIN"S CHAIRS. Please, move on. Please look at the Searay 270 OB's layout.
7) A different nicer looking better 27' version. But only if you can keep it's draft under 20, no wider than 8'6", somehow still hit 50mph with NON-SVHO engines, and of course, is acutally nice to look at it. And can actually sit more people and has even more storage. Maybe even design a left entry bow so that the main head compartment is even larger.
8) Please please no more low speed manuevering gimmics. You can solve the problem without needing gimmics. I don't want a larger rudder. I don't want stupid steering wheel paddle shifters. Seadoo had an awesome feature on their earlier boats that when in neutral if you bumped the steering wheel against either side's stop, that gave you a slight throttle boost. One handed manuevering without even needing to move my hand around the wheel!
9) One more time since it doesn't seem like you're getting it, you have got to improve not clogging up with grass, and the efficiency, noise levels,fuel economy and range of jets.
10) Maybe instead of a 27'er, you rework the 240 lineup back to a 230 lineup and offer a 260 lineup?


Another dream. While my family really wants a new larger bow rider, I want to get back into fishing and have also had them looking at bay boats.

A) A 26-27' bay boat. At the show, my family fell in love with the Boston Whaler Dauntless 270. I looked over the Scarab 255 bay, and it's nice, but also didn't really do it for us. I want to see a full 3 piece or at least 2.5 piece hull design. I didn't like the sides of the scarab.
B) I want a 26-27' bay boat with a squared off bow and a layout similar to the Dauntless with that larger seating in front of the console and the bow seating going almost to the bow. I want a bay boat that is more family oriented than fishing, but that I can still use for fishing. All the current family bayboats seem like they are still more fishing than family. Please design the bow to be just a little higher, more like a hybrid bay, with some carolina flare to it, but please please make it a squared off bow that maximes fwd seating.
C) I want to see a nice transom design with some concept of removable forward facing seating that can easily be flipped converted for rear facing when at the sandbar.
D) I'd like to see a nice seat setup for the main helm, that somehow the seating can flip so that when backed into a sandbar, I can still use that seating as well, just flip the backrest the other way. Not one single bayboat I saw had seating like this.
E) Please offer a model without a top/tower. If you put a windshield on it, it needs to be easily removable. It needs to fit through an 8' door. My family really liked other bayboats, but some had standard integrated towers that were a part of the main console and that would be the deal breaker.
F) I liked the dauntless integrated hidden windlass and how the anchor was tucked up under the bow (although I've read some dauntless reviews that stated it then got in the way of trailering). Maybe you can solve both.
G) Famaily loved the tremendous amount of storage beneath the large seat in front of the Dauntless's helm.
G) In case you've forgotten it already, do NOT go wider than 8'6" !!!!!!!!

 

[haknslash]

Just wanted to say that Yamaha doesn’t design the towers. XTP typically does most of the oem manufacturers towers. Wether or not they work closely with XTP I have no clue. Even if you folded the tower inside the cockpit I still think the top of the window coping is over 8’ but I could be wrong. Today’s boats are taller due to increased freeboard over the earlier models. You’ll want that freeboard if you do any bay, large lake or ocean boating. Not trying to shoot down your venting just letting you know Yamaha doesn’t really make these towers.

I gave up on today’s boats fitting in a standard 7’ and 8’ garage. If I didn’t then I would have to look for older, smaller boats. Because I wanted my boat more than I wanted it to fit in my house, I upgraded and got what I wanted. I wished my Max would fit in my garage like my 192 does but I also know that would be impossible short of knocking down the front of my house lol. The Max is such a BIG and DEEP boat that feels like I could fit an AR240 deck inside it! I think the days of small boats is long gone my man.

 

[swatski]

Not trying to shoot down your venting just letting you know Yamaha doesn’t really make these towers.

Okay, this is a ridiculous thread, not sure why I'm responding... But...
I guess saying Yamaha doesn't make their own towers (because XTP makes those) is like saying, for example, Toyota doesn't make their own transmissions (because Asin makes those), no?
I would think, as long as it is an OEM, they own it.

--

 

[Julian]

Great points across the board...for your usage needs. Every boater has different needs. For example, I LOVE the captains chair and didn't buy a new boat until they put one back in! It is a deal breaker for my wife not to be able to sit comfortably facing fowards - so keep in mind that they have to design these for a broad market. Sea grass isn't an issue for me....I'd prefer they focus on something else. Getting a boat into my garage was never even a passing thought for me....my garage is for my cars! I wish I had another garage for a boat...but I don't have the space. That said, I do agree with:

• Electronic throttles should trickle down to more models.
• Fuel economy
• Sound proofing
• 27' model that is 8'6 wide
• Windlass as an option

I would add my own list (a few things off the top of my head):

• Stock options for cabin enclosures (full rain windshield made of vinyl)
• Use standard stereo connections/equipment whenever possible - RCA connections, pre amp outputs, no special wiring harnesses, make it easy for us to mod them.
• More Ballast options
• Larger fuel tank....60 would be nice
• All models should think about Cell phone use, placement, charging, storing, mounting. They are ubiquitous nowadays - assume every seat will have one (at least in the cabin).
• Design the dashes to allow for easier add ons (like GPS/sounders, accessory power, phone holder, marine radio etc).

 

[ptwb]

You guys should try out the new type of convertible seating. It is more comfortable than the older type that you had to lift and transform. They definitely could benefit from integrated side arms that should be hinged. Yamaha can one up everybody by doing that. If you don't like what searay and others are doing, then why would you like it on the back of the 275? It's the same seating!

I understand they have to target a broad market, hence my frustration with the 275, it's not targeted at a broad market. They could carry the rear seating forward fiberglass forward and still mount a captains chair on the top of that instead of on a pole and you would still have what you want, but now they could offer an option to replace that chair with a version of the convertible rear seating.

Yes, thanks for pointing out. A larger fuel tank!!! I was amazed at the Dauntless's tank size. I could go to bimini and back 3 times! That's probably more than I need. I agree at least 60, if not maybe even 70-75. The searay has a 65 gallon tank, the four winns a 70, and the monterey an 80. Coupled with more fuel efficient engines they have great range. The four winns had a top speed of 55 and at cruising speed, a range of almost 200miles.

I loved the Searay dash. Would be so easy to put whatever MFD I wanted there. I also loved that none of the other boats had proprietary electronics (excluding whatever came with that engine).

 

[haknslash]

Okay, this is a ridiculous thread, not sure why I'm responding... But...
I guess saying Yamaha doesn't make their own towers (because XTP makes those) is like saying, for example, Toyota doesn't make their own transmissions (because Asin makes those), no?
I would think, as long as it is an OEM, they own it.

--

What I’m saying is Yamaha does not construct the tower at all. They simply bolt them on. Now I’m sure XTP and Yamaha do have some initial input such as styling, mounting point distances, sharing drawings and 3D models, design parameters, etc but as far as construction and stuff that’s all XTP. Take the Limited or X towers for instance. Clearly Yamaha has some input in the design of the tower since the tower bases have the lettering but the overall structural design I’m sure was all XTP. Building towers is what they do. It’s no different than any supplier that makes certain things for us. Yes we “own” the design more or less but we didn’t build it kind of thing. Hope that makes sense.

IIRC each tower has its own serial number assigned by XTP.

 

[ptwb]

Yamaha could tell XTP we need a better design that goes lower or we'll start shopping around to give the contract to somebody else. I'll bet XTP would in a heartbeat solve that problem. Of course, XTP could come back and say, ok we solved it, but now the tower costs $2000 more. If Yamaha was smart, they'd of shopped it around anyways and I have no doubt they'd have options and probably not really cost more.

No doubt that it's the same tower, same hinges, etc, just better designed. But then again, what's $2000 more when they're asking another 15,000 for a hardtop with a hole in it on the 275 ontop of the 1st 15000 for the original tower and soft bimini!!! They could always offer an e-series without any top. Seriously, why should it be hard to get a boat and just not have them bolt on that tower?

I just don't understand why Yamaha is so stubborn. Sometimes companies get so big, they just get arrogant or don't even care anymore and think that their good fortunes are just going to automatically continue. Nobody stays at the top forever.

 

[haknslash]

Just so you’re aware you can mod the tower cables to lower the tower more than stock. That’s what I did to get mine in a 7’ garage. Ideally you would expect the boat manufacturers to design the tower (no matter who is making it for them) so that it sits as low as possible into the boat. The whole point to lowering a tower a tower is to get it into its smallest envelope/footprint.

With that being said I still think you can forget about boats fitting in 7’ and 8’ doors as we move forward. People always want more no matter if it’s storage space, larger gas tanks or ballast tanks/sac capacity, freeboard for rougher waters and dry rides, etc so that means boats are just going to grow. Nature of the beast. That said it’s also why with my 2nd boat I wasn’t going to let the garage size dictate what I ultimately wanted and was willing to go offsite storage to get the boat I wanted rather than make a sacrifice to what would fit in my house. That’s what I ended up doing with my 192 as I originally wanted the AR240 but it wasn’t going to fit. Even the 212SS wasn’t going to fit so I sacrificed at the time.

 

[Bluewater272]

This post written by Jekyll and Hyde? No electronics, but give me drive by wire. Fit in the garage, but give me a big bimini. A current AR240 is light years ahead of an AR230. And speaking of Dauntless, you could choose to buy two AR240s or one Dauntless 240. There are few boats you can buy today north if 19' that will fit in the average person's garage, especially with a tower.

 

[swatski]

What I’m saying is Yamaha does not construct the tower at all. They simply bolt them on. Now I’m sure XTP and Yamaha do have some initial input such as styling, mounting point distances, sharing drawings and 3D models, design parameters, etc but as far as construction and stuff that’s all XTP. Take the Limited or X towers for instance. Clearly Yamaha has some input in the design of the tower since the tower bases have the lettering but the overall structural design I’m sure was all XTP. Building towers is what they do. It’s no different than any supplier that makes certain things for us. Yes we “own” the design more or less but we didn’t build it kind of thing. Hope that makes sense.

IIRC each tower has its own serial number assigned by XTP.

Huh?

Okay, Unwatching the thread. Lol.

—

 

[ptwb]

No electronics, but give me drive by wire.

Way back, seadoo offered standard drive by wire, but only the more expensive boats had the multi function computers and touch screens with perfect pass, cruise control like functionality, etc. Step 1 is drive by wire. Step 2 is everything else. Drive by wire doesn't require a screen or a button. And the only reason I'm asking for step 1 basic drive by wire is because Yamaha's engines are so hard to use a throttle at low speed. Design a throttle that I can just place wherever I want and fine, don't need drive by wire then. If I want, 1k, 1.5k,2k, 2.5k, give me a throttle that easily lets me set it and it works. Not a throttle where it jumps from 1k to 4k. I don't want to use buttons for below one rpm and then a throttle for above a certain rpm. They know their engines are hard to control. What do you think no wake mode is all about? How about making the throttle that's already there work smoother? They did, their solution, was drive by wire and then limit it to the top most model. Whether it be better more refined mechanical control or standard drive by wire, it doesn't matter to me how they solve it, but the standard boats need easier smoother throttle control without needing to fiddle with a screen or buttons. I don't care for all the other fancy proprietary electronics like gps speed control, radio control, engine control, and everything else integrated into one single touch screen.

 

[haknslash]

Huh?

Okay, Unwatching the thread. Lol.

—

I’m not sure what you’re looking for. You and I both know Yamaha does not make the towers. AFAWK they have zero input other than “make it fit” or they are more involved with the overall look and functions they require for the design and communicate that with XTP. I do not think that Yamaha does 100% of the design. I could be wrong though. XTP and Monster specialize in tower designs so it makes sense to let them design it for the Yamaha boats with the guidance of Yamaha designers. Do you really think Yamaha boat designers are focusing on FEA stress analysis of their towers or they let the tower specialists handle that since it’s what they do daily? My gut tells me XTP does that. XTP parent company focuses on working with the OEMs while Monster is XTP’s aftermarket division. Typically Yamaha’s towers are not something ground breaking and are usually very similar to other XTP tower designs, just that they are sorc’d to fit a Yamaha boat and any other special parameters Yamaha wants (embossed boat model tower bases, special bimini frames, etc).

That knob that’s on the back of the towers wasn’t a choice by Yamaha. You’ll see that same knob design on other towers made by XTP and Monster.

 

[Ancient canoe]

I think the point is the actual maker is irrelevant. They aren't aftermarket parts. Rather than source each the actual manufacturer the OP is just lumping it all under a Yamaha umbrella since that's the make of the boat. Even if they don't make the towers they still are culpable of putting them on their boats.

 

[haknslash]

I think the point is the actual maker is irrelevant. They aren't aftermarket parts. Rather than source each the actual manufacturer the OP is just lumping it all under a Yamaha umbrella since that's the make of the boat. Even if they don't make the towers they still are culpable of putting them on their boats.

I totally agree and I wasn’t trying to pass blame off to XTP entirely for the designs of the towers. If my post implied as such that’s wasn’t my intention and apologize to anyone that is confused. I was merely letting OP know Yamaha isn’t the one who makes the tower. We also don’t know how much input they have in the design of them. At the end of the day a Yamaha design engineer has to sign off and approve the design before they put them on the boats and before they make the first tower at XTP.

 

[Peelz]

Interesting post...I dont own one, but disagree with newer 240's not having more room than 230's. 2011-2014 seat 11. 2015+ 24' seat 12. the 230's only seat 10. the bow is enormous on the 240's up. The 240's also.... with the huge head compartment. dont remember that much storage on the 230....

In fact, I looked at the 2012+ 212ss right next to an ar230 on the same day, and they felt similar in size to me even though its 2 ft smaller.. it was that day We had a LITTLE remorse for buying our I/O boat. the storage on the newer yamahas is off the charts (compared to mine at least)

but the bow area-its a whole new level on the "pickle forked" models. Its not even close. 230's have that traditional v bow.

one of you i know has the top view diagram of the two next to each other -you should post it. lol

 

[Britboater]

I purchased my AR240 in 2015 and to be honest, and it’s just my opinion and observation, Yamaha have totally lost it in all markets.

PWC’s for instance, in Europe Seadoo blow Yamaha out of the water, every hire company use Seadoo, I noticed in the Caribbean and Royal Caribbean’s Coco Cay have fleets of Seadoo too.
Since Seadoo introduced the Spark Yamaha has failed to respond, the Spark is everywhere and such a good piece of kit for not much money. Last year I went to buy a Seadoo RXP and my local dealer told me Seadoo have sold out for the year, the US market had scooped up all available ski’s so leaving everywhere else short on their quota.

Evinrude G2’s, ten year warranty, 500 hours service intervals!

Now Yamaha choose to go big with their boats and to think they can demand in excess of $130K in competition with far more reliable, better built and overall better boats is laughable.
I put up with my boat being inadequate, I paid $48K and I’m an experienced boater with the ability to rectify build mistakes and the inherent problems that come with owning a Yamaha but I’d be damned to buy another, recommend or praise the company.

Yamaha do not listen to their customers, or so it seems, better the boats and skis you have Yamaha, look after your core customer base. I used to be Mr Yamaha but realised only recently KTM make a far superior motocross bike, Ducati produce a better build quality motorcycle, BRP have the upper hand with marine products and Steinway make the best pianos!


This is no way a rant just my opinion and observation of an average guy who loves being on the water, land or anything with an engine.

 

[Ancient canoe]

There is no doubt that Yamaha boats were once value buys marketed more for the biggest bang for your buck. Their market strategy has shifted as they branch into more competitive luxury and watersports markets. Anyone that was a value customer is certainly going to be left feeling jaded looking at these price tags.

 

[swatski]

I purchased my AR240 in 2015 and to be honest, and it’s just my opinion and observation, Yamaha have totally lost it in all markets.

PWC’s for instance, in Europe Seadoo blow Yamaha out of the water, every hire company use Seadoo, I noticed in the Caribbean and Royal Caribbean’s Coco Cay have fleets of Seadoo too.
Since Seadoo introduced the Spark Yamaha has failed to respond, the Spark is everywhere and such a good piece of kit for not much money. Last year I went to buy a Seadoo RXP and my local dealer told me Seadoo have sold out for the year, the US market had scooped up all available ski’s so leaving everywhere else short on their quota.

Evinrude G2’s, ten year warranty, 500 hours service intervals!

Now Yamaha choose to go big with their boats and to think they can demand in excess of $130K in competition with far more reliable, better built and overall better boats is laughable.
I put up with my boat being inadequate, I paid $48K and I’m an experienced boater with the ability to rectify build mistakes and the inherent problems that come with owning a Yamaha but I’d be damned to buy another, recommend or praise the company.

Yamaha do not listen to their customers, or so it seems, better the boats and skis you have Yamaha, look after your core customer base. I used to be Mr Yamaha but realised only recently KTM make a far superior motocross bike, Ducati produce a better build quality motorcycle, BRP have the upper hand with marine products and Steinway make the best pianos!


This is no way a rant just my opinion and observation of an average guy who loves being on the water, land or anything with an engine.

I have not followed other markets but as far as boats no question Yamaha is ridiculous. If you stop catering to your base AND care about QC, nothing good comes out of it long term.

Edit: Honestly, what marketing department in their right mind does not invite the biggest and fastest growing website representatives to their new model reveal?

—

 

[the MfM]

Way back, seadoo offered standard drive by wire, but only the more expensive boats had the multi function computers and touch screens with perfect pass, cruise control like functionality, etc. Step 1 is drive by wire. Step 2 is everything else. Drive by wire doesn't require a screen or a button. And the only reason I'm asking for step 1 basic drive by wire is because Yamaha's engines are so hard to use a throttle at low speed. Design a throttle that I can just place wherever I want and fine, don't need drive by wire then. If I want, 1k, 1.5k,2k, 2.5k, give me a throttle that easily lets me set it and it works. Not a throttle where it jumps from 1k to 4k. I don't want to use buttons for below one rpm and then a throttle for above a certain rpm. They know their engines are hard to control. What do you think no wake mode is all about? How about making the throttle that's already there work smoother? They did, their solution, was drive by wire and then limit it to the top most model. Whether it be better more refined mechanical control or standard drive by wire, it doesn't matter to me how they solve it, but the standard boats need easier smoother throttle control without needing to fiddle with a screen or buttons. I don't care for all the other fancy proprietary electronics like gps speed control, radio control, engine control, and everything else integrated into one single touch screen.

You realize sea doo couldn’t sell their boats in part because no one wanted a bunch of gizmos and engines that broke every other trip out?

Never mind the crappy upholstery.

 

[ptwb]

You realize sea doo couldn’t sell their boats in part because no one wanted a bunch of gizmos and engines that broke every other trip out?

IMO, Seadoo had trouble selling because their boats were more expensive and their layout was terrible. I only cared about their non-supercharged engines, those are very reliable. Their 230 layout was just not any good. The transom was the same old style transom with no lounging and they didn't have a large head compartment. IMO, the new Yamaha transom at that time was so ground breaking, that sealed Seadoo's fate, and they didn't react quickly enough.

Now Yamaha's boats are way more expensive finally adding the same gizmos Seadoo had added way back then, if anything, Yamaha has even more gizmos now. Electronic throttle control, ski control, cruise control, touch screen control, solar panels, and now, lol, paddle shifters! All I care about is either make mechanical throttles that work for all speeds or make electronic throttle standard. That's the only single electronic gizmo I'm asking for that be made standard and it's a reliable feature. Save all the other gizmos for the upper end e-series boats.