Pro versus con of component speakers and speaker locations

[JetPowered]

I'm looking for the pros and cons of adding component speakers for my mid cabin speaker expansion. On my boat (2008 232 Limited), the port side lounger is almost always in the lounge position. I was considering adding a 6.5 or 7.7 inch coaxial speaker on the gunnel wall at the floor under the lounger and another at my feet under the helm starboard side on the opposite gunnel wall. However, we almost always put 'stuff' under the lounger, muddying the sound. The helm speaker will be less encumbered but will always have feet and carpet down low, again muddying the sound.

If I put a component tweeter closer to ear level, in theory it should help solidify the sound. But in practice, does it? Or is this just over complicating it? There are limited places to mount a component speaker in these locations. I prefer more sound quality over quantity especially since I have kids and I don't need to blast them out. On the other hand, if it's just me in the boat, all bets are off.

For sanity's sake let just assume we are talking JL Audio speakers and components. Let's also assume that I upgrade bow and cabin speakers to MX650's and add the required amplification before looking at adding midship component speakers.

@David Analog , @txav8r , I'd appreciate some input.

 

[txav8r]

It would be advantageous to have mid cabin speakers. But getting optimum sometimes isn't possible and you just have to go with what the boat gives you. The limiting factor is the distance between the combing pocket inside wall and the inside wall of the hull behind it. Even if it is a little close, you can make a bezel to extend the speaker outward. As for moving a tweeter up higher and keeping the midrange down low, the separation may be too great but i am no expert there. Putting a coaxial or mid woofer under the lounger isn't great I don't believe, however down lower on the helm side wouldn't concern me and that is where I am putting mine in the 240. But the wall space back there is different in the 230 compared to the 240, so it is literally a custom job I think. Seeing what is back there is paramount PRIOR to cutting holes!!! And you can get back there to look at it. It is pretty easy to view it on the helm side, but you may need some jigs. I mounted a switch/fuse panel that had about 2.75" of depth behind the wall too, so I know that you probably have enough room back there, but the port side is a question. You can get under the port storage, and remove the small bulkhead between that compartment and the area in question, or just snap a few pics over it. Then make a jig with the space required to reach into that area and see if it will fit. There are ways to do it. I apologize for not yet getting my upgrade done, and having it at least as a platform to consider options. But the two boats are different, so you will still need to do the research on space availability. I bow to @David Analog to consider the satellite tweeters. Even with that, you still have to find a suitable location for the mid woofer.

 

[David Analog]

Jet,
Not all separate component speakers share all the same benefits. Here's a breakdown.
***Some have better individual components and some have very complex multi-pole outboard crossover networks. The ones with very sophisticated crossovers have very accurate responses but also signal losses and are less efficient. These six piece component sets are good for a quiet car but bad for a boat.
***Some are no different or no better than a standard coaxial in that they have the same quality of midbass driver and tweeter and perhaps no more than an in-line 1st order (cap only) filter for the tweeter. More for show than substance. The only benefit to this type is the ability to locate the mid and tweeter independently. But without an adjustable crossover you have limits. More on the pros and cons on this to come.
***The JL Audio components you mentioned are only available in the M series and in 7.7" models. Both the JL Audio coaxials and components share the same 2nd order crossovers and the same individual drivers. So there is no quality distinction between the two, and no sensitivity difference, in the case of the JL's. Oftentimes the component model, versus the coaxial model, has a continuous midbass cone for a small increase in surface area and that helps the midbass. But since the JL Audio coaxial uses a bridge/grill mounted tweeter, and also has an uninterrupted midbass cone, the two are identical in this respect also.
***The advantages and disadvantages of separate positioning.
The component set allows you to raise the tweeter level so that it is heard more on-axis and better avoids obstructions. This certainly improves the ability to hear upper midrange, treble and high frequency content. Or, some allow you to aim the tweeter so that you are more in the dispersion sweet spot.
Here's what you do NOT want to do....never spread the mid and tweeter out horizontally, past a few inches. A little more or less depending on the distance away from you. This smears the image and brings your attention to the tweeter as a separate source.
You do have more freedom to separate the tweeter vertically. Your auditory system localizes very well horizontally but poorly vertically. You do not want to telegraph the tweeter position. So you still are limited, but to a far lesser degree, in distance vertically before the tweeter becomes too apparent and detached sounding. As the tweeter gains a positional advantage it may resolve one set of problems but also raises the tweeter output level in respect to the mid. An obstructed midbass driver can compound this. So the tweeter can get very strident sounding. This can ruin vocal content. Understand that when there is a positional dis/advantage between the mid and tweet it is a rather sudden change in amplitude over a very narrow spectrum. You may not be so sensitive to gradual amplitude changes or changes that occur octaves apart, but sudden changes can be brutal. Many automotive separates have crossover adjustments that shift the midrange crossover slope higher or lower or steeper or softer, and attenuate or accentuate the tweeter level to make positional adjustments and maintain their linearity and sound quality. JL Audio for example. But these features are not found in marine speakers.
So can the right separates provide a true advantage? Absolutely. But in moderation.

 

[JetPowered]

Mel, you are right about the separation distance between speaker elements. As to space behind the walls, I'm doing my Perfect Pass install this week, so I can measure that. I think it will be OK at the floor level. In the combing pockets would be another question. I've seen a few pictures of speakers installed there and I didn't love it. Perhaps if it was a smaller speaker.

 

[txav8r]

One advantage you have @JetPowered , is that your existing cockpit speakers are at floor level already, and in the tub, so to speak. So you already have pretty good mid cabin vs aft cabin. Maybe an upgrade to those speakers, to 7.7's vs 6.5's and not worry with mid cabin add's? Just a thought, but zone control becomes a player the more speakers you add. Just like @David Analog says about separation from the component and tweet, the same gets into play with even separate coaxials. The problem in my mind, is I want more sound right beside me, but I don't want to blow out the other cockpit occupants. So having some control over the fore and aft speakers is good. Many guys don't want to upgrade the HU too, or add an EQ, so their zone control is just the fader. You have the bow speakers to consider and you may be adding transom's? That just adds to what you need to control. The Fusion IP700i gives you 4 zones of control, and that helps, if you don't go overboard. I would lean toward the combing pocket placement if you can get the distance needed. Otherwise, you may find your limiting your lounger and only using the seat position. I know this is a conundrum, it was for me too!

 

[JetPowered]

David, thanks for weighing in on this. A lot to consider.
Mel, not to worry, the HU was updated to a Fusion Ip700i this winter so the soil is good to grow a bigger system!
Wife's favorite seat is the Lounger, so I can't see it being in seat position when she's in the boat. The kids live in the bow, so while I'll upgrade the speakers up there, I may not amplify it like I do in back and just run it off of the Fusion HU.

 

[David Analog]

I know that this is going a bit off topic, but I really like four cockpit coaxials versus two. And making the addition in some models can be a pain.
Good bass sound quality is VERY dependent on the midbass that comes from the coaxials. As a test, listen to any subwoofer in isolation, without the coaxials, and with the lowpass filter engaged. The bass is totally soggy. Most of the bass tonal construction make-up comes from the upper harmonics that are within the realm of the coaxial midbass driver.
With four cockpit coaxials you have double the surface area to match up better with the sub's output. Also, with front cockpit coaxials the midbass is in closer proximity to the subwoofer (versus from the far back of the cockpit) which helps with the phase integration between the two. So having four cockpit coaxials does more than just adding a feeling of ambience to the mids/highs.

 

[David Analog]

David, thanks for weighing in on this. A lot to consider.
Mel, not to worry, the HU was updated to a Fusion Ip700i this winter so the soil is good to grow a bigger system!
Wife's favorite seat is the Lounger, so I can't see it being in seat position when she's in the boat. The kids live in the bow, so while I'll upgrade the speakers up there, I may not amplify it like I do in back and just run it off of the Fusion HU.

I gave you the pros and cons with the reasons why but it is hard to say what the exact limitations are without placing it in context within a specific boat and specific locations. What could be helpful is to place tape in the potential locations and take photos. Then the conversation becomes more precise.

 

[JetPowered]

David, not off topic, in fact very relevant regarding additional coaxial speakers. What you are explaining is exactly what I have been experiencing; out of phase sound and reduction in quality. While they contribute, I don't consider the bow speaker "zone" to be primary to the cockpit listening experience. Yet when equal level is given to both from and rear zones, the bow speakers are perceived to be much louder. Of course this is a idle or at anchor. Once wind and engine noise come into play and it either drowns out the bow speakers or drives me back behind the windshield at which point the rear cockpit speakers barely sound like they are on but they are. Additionally, my kids ride in the bow so I want to keep from blasting them out to protect their little ears.

So yes, mid cabin speakers should add a DRAMATIC increase in sound quality. Look, I realize that I have crappy stocks speakers so a step up to ANY better speaker will eliminate at least part of this problem. Mel is right, fix what is wrong first then see if you need to improve it. I just like to start mapping out the possibilities before I set out down the path, so conversations like this are valuable. Keep it coming!

I'll get some possible speaker locations, today if I have a chance.

 

[David Analog]

Yes, having only far rear cockpit speakers definitely stink from the driver's & observer's perspective. Behind you. A greater distance from you. And when you add motion it increases the challenge many times over. Much like rear quarter panel speakers in a convertible are a lost cause once underway.
I have always considered bow speakers to be a distant zone of no use to those on the opposite side of the helm structures and wind screen. Just for the benefit of the peeps in the bow.

 

[jawsf16]

Jet,

I have, literally, been in your boat a few times! I just added mid cabin speakers in my 240 but have not bee on the water with them yet. On my 210 I added four 6x9s down low in the bow and cabin. It made. Big difference especially since ll four stock speakers were behind passengers most of the time. I liked the down low positioning of the 230 because it is hard to block. I think upgrading your lowers cabins would be easy and quite effective but mid cabin would fill in the space but you gotta figure out where to go with them. Consider that the wife may not like a single speaker in her right ear also. I ended up putting one down at drivers knee and one above the glovebox next to the passenger.

 

[JetPowered]

Sounds like I need to just focus on a good two channel system (or 2.1 with sub). Screw 6 or eight channels! OK, may not that dramati. This is like debating Dolby ATMOS 7.2.4 setup versus a two channel system with tube amps over on AVSForum.com but with a JBN flair!

 

[JetPowered]

Jet,

I have, literally, been in your boat a few times! . . .

I know you have. I need to call your Dad and see if he wants to hit the water some time. I did promise him visitation rights.

Yeah, speaker placement in the ONLY thing that is keeping me from jumping into mid cabin speakers. Just no good places. Maybe Ill take my computer speakers our there and stuff it under the seat position to play with it . . . Hmm.

Do you have a picture of the glovebox speaker position on your 240?

 

[GTBRMC]

Sounds like I need to just focus on a good two channel system (or 2.1 with sub). Screw 6 or eight channels! OK, may not that dramati. This is like debating ATMOS 7.2.4 setup versus two channel system with tube amps over on AVSForum but with a JBN flair!

I have no idea what you said, but I agree completely!

 

[JetPowered]

David will likely know, but hey, I'm good with lowest common denominator.