REV8s and REV10s

[PaulyB]

So currently I have two sets of REV8s powered by an SD-2... I just made a deal with a guy to sell one of my sets of REV8s and an HT-2 amp for 800 bucks, giving me the ability to purchase a set of REV10s.... The question I have is, will I still be able to run the REV8s and REV10s off the same SD-2 amp? I am planning on only doing this for a season if it works.... Then I will probably upgrade the last set of REV8s to REV10s and maybe buy another SD-2 to power them. @Earmark Marine do you have any advice/recommendations?

 

[David Analog]

I'm sure Odin with Earmark Marine will eventually join the conversation. He knows best since he has both models on display side by side every day.

IMO,the Wetsounds Rev8/10 combo will work fine for the short term. But here is the consideration for the long term. The Wetsounds Rev10 has a fairly stout advantage over the Rev8 in sensitivity and output based on the large differential in surface area. The Rev10 also has deeper reach into the midbass because of the large difference in pod displacement. So when these two dissimilar speakers are powered the same you will mostly hear the dominant Rev10 with less contribution from the Rev8. Now if you power them independently and gain them for equal acoustic output then you are gaining down the Rev10 to protect the Rev8 or gaining down the Rev10 to balance with the Rev8. Per the total investment you have some unrealized performance, and certainly compared to two pair of Rev10s. And that is why I am always a proponent of a symmetrical tower speaker set-up. I don't care for hybrids and mixes.

 

[Earmark Marine]

We have the REV8 and REV10 on our store displays side-by-side so I've had the opportunity to compare them extensively. The REV10 has a definite scoop in the midrange, with the highs and lows being more pronounced, while the REV8 has the opposite in that it's got a bit of a peak in the midrange. Neither of these is dramatic when you listen to one speaker by itself, but in a side-by-side comparison it's obvious.

That might make the 2 speakers appear to be a good setup for blending, with the 2 speakers each filling in for the other in the areas where they are stronger. However, the REV10 also spears to be significantly more efficient (by about 3db) meaning the REV10 will be noticeably louder given the same amount of power. That means that powering the 2 speakers off the same amplifier will always make the REV10 what you hear, and the REV8 will do very little to contribute, especially at wake range.

In theory, you could even this out by powering the REV8 and REV10 with separate amps and setting the gain of each amp to level out the volume of the 2 speakers. But this is a bad idea because you would end up with 1 of 2 bad results. Either (a) you turn down the REV10 until it matches the output of the REV8, in which case you lose all of the benefits of the REV10, or (b) you send double the power to the REV8 that you send to the REV10 (to make up for the REV10's 3db advantage in output) but then you're overpowering the REV8.

But the best news for your situation is that the SD2 is a much more powerful amplifier than the HT series amps. Don't just compare "paper watts", in a real life scenario I have sold many customers a SD2 and 2 pairs of REV10's and that SD2's 300 watts per speaker is more than enough to satisfy everyone that has purchased that setup from me, when the system is properly setup and tuned. So you don't need to buy another SD2, your existing amp can power 2 pairs of REV10's and sound great.

Odin

 

[PaulyB]

My amp cuts out now powering 4 REV8s, thats why I am looking to go with two SD-2s when I step up to four REV10s.... Right now the REV8s are super high, and not much bass.... I am trying to fix that if I can and with two SD-2s running 200 w total more in 4 ohm configuration, I think the power draw will be similar to what I am seeing now? Your thoughts @David Analog and @Earmark Marine

 

[Earmark Marine]

If your amp is cutting out I suspect that there might be a problem somewhere. The SD2 is 1200 watts when run at 2-ohm stereo, which should be very well powered for 4 tower speakers at 300 watts per speaker. If the amp is cutting out (or sounds like it is) then it could be a variety of things, ranging from insufficient current supply (batteries, cabling issue, poor ground), insufficient pre-amp voltage, improper setup/tuning, etc. While it is possible that you really need more power for the way you use your system I would want to verify that everything else is 100% before adding another SD2 based on the many systems that I have done with a single SD2 where the tower was very loud and clean and didn't cut out.

Can you post up your complete system (all components, what powers what, etc) from source unit to speakers, including the wiring used. Also describe what happens when it "cuts out" and the circumstanced under which this happens (type of music playing, what format the music is in, how long it's been playing, etc). Did you do the installation yourself or do you know how the system was tuned?

 

[PaulyB]

I installed the system myself... The system never cut out at all until after a few weeks ago, one of my speakers went bad and I had to send it back to Wet Sounds and they replaced the Woofer and the driver. Ever since I got it back, it now will cut out on some songs if I have it turned up the 42 on my deck, which goes up to 50 (42 is as high as I turn my deck up to). When it cuts out, the Tower speakers go quiet for about 3 seconds and then come back on. After it cuts out I usually just would walk over to my boat and turn the deck down to about 39 and it wouldn't cut out again, and after a few songs I would walk over and turn it back up to 42 and it would play again for a while before it cut out again, and I would do the process all over again. I just read in the manual that when it cuts out that that light on the amp should do something, but have never watched it before. The next time I go out I will be sure to watch it to see what it does. My system has never been tuned by someone who knows what they are doing, but I tried to pay my local Wet Sounds dealer to tune it, and he listened to the boat and told me I didnt need to pay him anything, because he thought it sounded great and he couldnt do anything to it that I hadnt already done.

My system consists of:
2 - 8G31 AGM Deep Cycle DEKA Industrial batteries
Sony cdx-h910ui head unit
WS420SQ
JL RCA 18 ft RCA wires
JL 1/0 Guage Power and ground to a JL Distribution block which distributes to two 4 guage strands to an HT-6 and an SD-2
HT-6 Powers 4 Kicker KM-654LC 6.5 inch speakers on channels 1-4, using generic 16 gauge marine speaker wire from West marine, channel 5 and 6 is bridged to power a WS FS10FA using WS Wet Wire, 14 guage I believe.
SD-2 is powering 4 WS REV8's using a 4 conductor tower wiring kit that was purchased from Earmark Marine.

I have a Minn Kota - 345PC charger that I plug in at a dock every night after being at the sand bar all day. I turn the Battery selector switch to 1 to isolate the batteries from each other so they both get fully charged.

My Tower speakers dont cut out all the time, its only on some songs. I think it cut out on "Uma Thurman" on Labor Day, when I had only been at the sand bar for about an hour or so, but I do believe I forgot to turn my battery selection switch to "both", but I still would think that one battery should power it for an hour without any cutting out. I also just reinstalled my WS Sub Woofer, because one that I had installed previously the wire somehow broke at the solder joint on the negative terminal and the Sub stopped working, and it was replaced under warranty by my dealer.

My system is very loud, at my local Sand Bar there may be one or two boats that are as loud as mine. Most boats turn their radios off when I am there or request for me to link up with them so we can play the same music. I just assumed that the amp was getting hot and that it was a normal result, running it as hard as I run it. I will be taking the boat out again this weekend so hopefully I can duplicate the issue and find out the cause.

I will check all of my battery connections to ensure they are all tight. The key factor is if the tower speakers cut out again, I should watch the amp to see what warning it is sending out.

 

[David Analog]

Typically when the amplifier is in the thermal mode it takes some time to cool down and return to operation. Generally when the amplifier is in the low voltage mode it will more quickly respond when the demand is cut. A handy multimeter across the amplifier primary terminals when under load and at the time of shut down will be most revealing and help end speculation.
If you are regularly depleting the stereo batteries/bank below their 50% point, or 12.0 volts, then you will see a sharp weekend to weekend decline in their performance and a significantly reduced lifespan. There is not a linear ratio between number of cycles and depth of cycles. If batteries are used incorrectly you can notice this decline in less than a single season.
Another but less frequent issue is when a speaker voice coil is partially damaged. The enamel coating that insulates the fine individual voice coil windings begins to get burnt away. As the speaker VC heats up the voice coil shorts across a fraction of the windings, thereby reducing the DCR below a safe operating level and sends the amplifier into protection. But while the amplifier goes into protection it isn't actually in the thermal mode.
I recommend that those who do their own installations purchase their entire system from Odin at Earmark Marine so he can walk them through the system set-up and tuning process. He can keep it basic or get very advanced depending on your individual tolerance for technology. There is no one who is even close to having Odin's knowledge in this area. And this is an area that is routinely over-simplified on the net, on forums, and by audio brand personnel. Why? Because they really don't know how and don't grasp all the concepts. This makes a huge difference in system performance, even with the identical equipment, and makes an equipment reliability difference.

 

[redthumper9]

I'm going to follow this as well. I'm a little concerned hearing that about the SD2. It seems as if I may be going entirely Wetsounds this winter and two of the SD2' are possibly in the future along with a possibly an SD4. Like you @PaulyB, I have the loudest boat in my area with the equipment I have now, and I have no problems with anything cutting out. Let us know what you find!

 

[David Analog]

The Wetsounds Sinister series of amplifiers don't have a history of shutting down. In fact it would be extremely rare, even in August in the deep south. But on the flipside, you absolutely want a smart and sophisticated protection circuit doing its job, whether the issue is low voltage supply, thermal, DC offset, short circuit, or other. The alternative to a good protection circuit can be a catastrophic failure. The point is to find out exactly why the amplifier is having to protect itself from an external cause.
Class D is 60% more efficient but you often see Class D amplifiers have a much smaller footprint and less heat sink mass to match their higher efficiency. The Wetsounds Sinister series don't skimp on footprint or heatsink mass.
The Wetsounds Sinister series is one of only a few 12 volt audio brands, like JL Audio as another example, that are totally domestically designed. The Wetsounds Sinister amplifiers are designed by Robert Zeff of Nikola Engineering in the NW, USA. The JL Audio amplifiers are designed by a team of in-house audio/electrical engineers in Phoenix, Ariz. Just about everything else from other brands is a platform amplifier, and shared by multiple importing brands, and purchased out of a China catalog. Just different external chassis and logos. The quality differences and engineering differences are substantial.

 

[redthumper9]

Thanks for the info @David Analog. I have been an advocate for Exile for a couple of years now. I still like their equipment and it has served me well.....not to mention Brian was great to work with. With that said, a dealer in my area is an authorized Wetsounds dealer, but has focused more on the utv side. After spending some time on my boat a few weekends ago, they are giving me a pretty good opportunity to go with Wetsounds and help them promote their dealership. I am excited because I know that even though my current setup is good, the WS equipment is the pinnacle. Just selling everything and starting over.....ugggghhhh!

 

[Detonate]

I have an SD2 powering 4 Rev-10's.
No issues at all, and it JAMS!

 

[David Analog]

Thanks for the info @David Analog. I have been an advocate for Exile for a couple of years now. I still like their equipment and it has served me well.....not to mention Brian was great to work with. With that said, a dealer in my area is an authorized Wetsounds dealer, but has focused more on the utv side. After spending some time on my boat a few weekends ago, they are giving me a pretty good opportunity to go with Wetsounds and help them promote their dealership. I am excited because I know that even though my current setup is good, the WS equipment is the pinnacle. Just selling everything and starting over.....ugggghhhh!

I hope you repeat the color scheme. That looked awesome. Many do the Wetsounds in two-tone with the pod one color and the thick bezel another.

 

[redthumper9]

@David Analog, if I don't powder coat the tower, then yes, the new tower speakers will get the same red treatment. Thanks for the compliment. Quick question regarding the SD line of amps......would the SD4 (or SD6) be too much on either my JL mx650's or the Wetsounds 6.5" offering. 185 watts rms per channel is insane. Would I be better using an HT series on the in boats?

 

[David Analog]

@David Analog, if I don't powder coat the tower, then yes, the new tower speakers will get the same red treatment. Thanks for the compliment. Quick question regarding the SD line of amps......would the SD4 (or SD6) be too much on either my JL mx650's or the Wetsounds 6.5" offering. 185 watts rms per channel is insane. Would I be better using an HT series on the in boats?

First, for any system with a subwoofer, two pair of coaxial speakers in the cockpit is essential to have musical balance. So just two channels of an SD4 or SD6 could drive that cockpit zone perfectly by running two speakers in parallel per channel. Two additional channels would have to be dedicated to the bow zone pair of speakers, but, with the proper tuning technique each bow speaker would receive the identical power as each cockpit speaker. That would be powering either the JL Audio or Wetsounds 6.5" coaxials to there full potential. So that is four channels of either amplifier.
Personally I really like over-powering speakers, not because I like especially loud or would use the full continuous power, but because I would use the burst of instantaneous power to reproduce musical transients. I hear the extra headroom and dynamic range as clarity and contrast. But being sensitive to distortion/compression/clipping I have never blown a speaker in a display, car, boat or home audio system....spanning decades.

 

[redthumper9]

First, for any system with a subwoofer, two pair of coaxial speakers in the cockpit is essential to have musical balance. So just two channels of an SD4 or SD6 could drive that cockpit zone perfectly by running two speakers in parallel per channel. Two additional channels would have to be dedicated to the bow zone pair of speakers, but, with the proper tuning technique each bow speaker would receive the identical power as each cockpit speaker. That would be powering either the JL Audio or Wetsounds 6.5" coaxials to there full potential. So that is four channels of either amplifier.
Personally I really like over-powering speakers, not because I like especially loud or would use the full continuous power, but because I would use the burst of instantaneous power to reproduce musical transients. I hear the extra headroom and dynamic range as clarity and contrast. But being sensitive to distortion/compression/clipping I have never blown a speaker in a display, car, boat or home audio system....spanning decades.

That was what I was thinking. I figured properly tuned, everything would be just fine. My thoughts are an SD2 on (4) REV10's, an SD2 on a XXX, and an SD6 on the in boats. Because of expense, I may start with the SD2 on the tower and the SD6 on in boats AND sub (using 4 channels for the coaxials and the final two bridged to the sub).....then later graduating to an additional SD2 for the sub. Sorry to hijack @PaulyB !

 

[PaulyB]

If your amp is cutting out I suspect that there might be a problem somewhere. The SD2 is 1200 watts when run at 2-ohm stereo, which should be very well powered for 4 tower speakers at 300 watts per speaker. If the amp is cutting out (or sounds like it is) then it could be a variety of things, ranging from insufficient current supply (batteries, cabling issue, poor ground), insufficient pre-amp voltage, improper setup/tuning, etc. While it is possible that you really need more power for the way you use your system I would want to verify that everything else is 100% before adding another SD2 based on the many systems that I have done with a single SD2 where the tower was very loud and clean and didn't cut out.

Can you post up your complete system (all components, what powers what, etc) from source unit to speakers, including the wiring used. Also describe what happens when it "cuts out" and the circumstanced under which this happens (type of music playing, what format the music is in, how long it's been playing, etc). Did you do the installation yourself or do you know how the system was tuned?

Typically when the amplifier is in the thermal mode it takes some time to cool down and return to operation. Generally when the amplifier is in the low voltage mode it will more quickly respond when the demand is cut. A handy multimeter across the amplifier primary terminals when under load and at the time of shut down will be most revealing and help end speculation.
If you are regularly depleting the stereo batteries/bank below their 50% point, or 12.0 volts, then you will see a sharp weekend to weekend decline in their performance and a significantly reduced lifespan. There is not a linear ratio between number of cycles and depth of cycles. If batteries are used incorrectly you can notice this decline in less than a single season.
Another but less frequent issue is when a speaker voice coil is partially damaged. The enamel coating that insulates the fine individual voice coil windings begins to get burnt away. As the speaker VC heats up the voice coil shorts across a fraction of the windings, thereby reducing the DCR below a safe operating level and sends the amplifier into protection. But while the amplifier goes into protection it isn't actually in the thermal mode.
I recommend that those who do their own installations purchase their entire system from Odin at Earmark Marine so he can walk them through the system set-up and tuning process. He can keep it basic or get very advanced depending on your individual tolerance for technology. There is no one who is even close to having Odin's knowledge in this area. And this is an area that is routinely over-simplified on the net, on forums, and by audio brand personnel. Why? Because they really don't know how and don't grasp all the concepts. This makes a huge difference in system performance, even with the identical equipment, and makes an equipment reliability difference.

So I just got done running my system at full blast for a couple of minutes.... I have upgraded one of my pairs of REV8s to REV10s, so I am running 2 REV8s and 2 REV 10s off an SD-2 amp. The amp began shutting down and the Logo on the amp would flash pretty quickly... I am looking at the manual and it states that the flash I am seeing is " Short protect and DC output protection: LED flashes for .25 seconds and off for .25 seconds repeatedly."

What does that mean and what causes that?

Thanks!

 

[David Analog]

Your authorized Wetsounds dealer should be able to walk you through several (there are many possibilities) of the potential causes for the amplifier going into that particular mode of protection. And then he should walk you through the various diagnostic steps to isolate the true cause.
Having the amplifier shut down before, there is no reason to believe that the problem wouldn't continue once changing out one set of speakers.
On a slightly different subject, as mentioned above, a mix of Rev8s and Rev10s is okay for the short term but eventually will be problematic based on a major inequity in sensitivity and output of the two sizes.
An SD2 driving two pair of 4-ohm HLCDs in stereo/parallel shouldn't have a thermal shut-down problem. It's a common and normally trouble-free set-up. So it's not likely to be a configuration mismatch but rather a specific defective product or wiring flaw.