SOLVED! - Problem with fueling - where to start troubleshooting? (non-Yamaha jet boat)

[swatski]

It is not a Yamaha jet boat, but... it does have Yamaha o/b's! And - I'm in need of solid advice - where else would I go?

2018 EdgeWater 280cx, purchased in the winter in MA, just launched in the water here in NJ.

This boat has two completely independent 100gal tanks/ fuel systems.

STRB side seems to work okay, however I can not fill the PORT side tank for the life of me.
In ~40 mins at slow trickle I got about 30gal in.

(I actually ran out of gas on this tank, long story, it was supposed to be full from the dealer but turned out to had been almost empty... Gauges are not calibrated but that's a separate issue. Right now I just want to be able to fill the tank.)

Some other background:
I reached out to EW customer service, they were great and very helpful with several other issues, but they referred me back to the dealer with this issue as it needs to be properly diagnosed (I can't really blame them, I guess, this is hard to troubleshoot over the phone).
Unlike YJBs, you can not just get a parts fisch and figure things out! Oh, what a great asset the comprehensive YJB manuals are, one can only appreciate it switching brands. But I digress.
There were known issues with these boats up to 2014 with a redundant fuel valve that needed to be removed from the fuel line (tank side) but those are supposedly not used after 2015. I have not checked for that, yet.

The dealer, unfortunately, has been an ass and no help at all, plus he is a couple of states away, so I'm pretty much on my own.

As far as the boats history, after we purchased it in the showroom (with great survey results), the boat was moved into the water unbeknown to us... That was very unfortunate as there were several severe storms in the Cape Cod and it's possible things happened, the vent trap might have been encrusted in salt etc. Kicking myself for stupidly not having the boat transported over in December, but nothing I can do about it now. Didn't cross my mind the dealer would unload the boat from his showroom into the salt marsh in the middle of Mass winter without giving me a call but it is what it is - live and learn... lol.

I would like to address the potential root cause(s) in some logical fashion.

Here is the generic schematic of the fuel system with the EPA emissions control vents/valves:


In my boat, both fuel caps are on the port side; fuel/vent lines are not kinked anywhere, the best I can tell; access is excellent (for what it is).

Here are some pictures:

Here is the fuel caps' location, PORT tank cap is aft.

The boat has the carbon canister systems similar to our Yamahas; what I wonder is: would clogging the canister vent /circuit lines matter for filling the tank? My understanding is, those carbon canisters are there to catch vapors generated during diurnal cycles when the fuel caps are closed, while cap built-in vent line serves to equalize pressure/release excess air from the tank while pumping fuel in. I may have it wrong though.



The fuel caps have built-in fill and vent


The question is - where to start?

I'm thinking of taking the lines off, tank side, try blowing them clear?

it looks like the "P-trap" can be disassembled for cleaning as it appears to rotate; can I disassemble it working from the inside for cleaning?

TIA!

--

 

[haknslash]

Just glancing over some searches on THT it seems most likely a vent line is obstructed or kinked. One guy mentioned his Boston Whaler had too long of a fuel hose and it caused him all sorts of issues until he shortened it to the length others had. Hate you have bad luck on the new to you boat but I’m sure you’ll get it sorted. Whatever you do don’t blow air into your vent line or you could cause a lot of issues with seals and have a fuel geyser. Was just reading that on THT.

 

[steveinmd]

Have you tried changing the orientation of the gas nozzle? Maybe the gas flow is hitting a joint and causing a false fill?

 

[TeenGee]

The tank should vent while filling otherwise the air will need to exit the tank through the full hose. Did a mud dauber build a nest in the overboard vent port?

 

[swatski]

Just glancing over some searches on THT it seems most likely a vent line is obstructed or kinked. One guy mentioned his Boston Whaler had too long of a fuel hose and it caused him all sorts of issues until he shortened it to the length others had. Hate you have bad luck on the new to you boat but I’m sure you’ll get it sorted. Whatever you do don’t blow air into your vent line or you could cause a lot of issues with seals and have a fuel geyser. Was just reading that on THT.

Thank you, good points, I did search all that. My lines appear to go strait up and down, no kincks I can see, and it is the PORT side, which is directly adjacent to the fill caps - quite a puzzler.
I promise I won't use a vacuum cleaner to suck gasoline vapors out the fuel tank! or use a compressor to blow the air in! lol

What I'm learning with this boat which was only used for three short seasons is how much lack of simple maintenance can quickly become a shit show! Overall, I would buy it again in a heartbeat, just kicking myself for leaving it with the dealer after purchase. That was a really inane move, I should had known better.
WIth that being said, I have no idea if the fueling issue is new or old as I can not trust the dealer telling me everything was fine.

It's just boating, new or old, most boats have issues. In my experience (n=7) the only boat I never had any issues with, zero, was the 2012 SX190!

 

[TeenGee]

After looking at your pix on my computer instead of my phone, disregard my previous post. I see the tank fill vent line in your pix.
I suggest disconnecting the Deck Fill and Fill Vent from the tank and checking for obstructions in those lines.
If no obstruction is found in the lines, check for obstructions in the tank fittings themselves.

 

[swatski]

The tank should vent while filling otherwise the air will need to exit the tank through the full hose. Did a mud dauber build a nest in the overboard vent port?

Yep. There are two venting systems though and I wonder which one to attack first.

 

[swatski]

After looking at your pix on my computer instead of my phone, disregard my previous post. I see the tank fill vent line in your pix.
I suggest disconnecting the Deck Fill and Fill Vent from the tank and checking for obstructions in those lines.
If no obstruction is found in the lines, check for obstructions in the tank fittings themselves.

That is what I was thinking - thank you for that!

--

 

[TeenGee]

As a side note, I believe there are check valves in the Fill Cap and Carbon Canister. Such that air only enters the tank through the Fill Cap and exits only through the Carbon Canister.

 

[swatski]

Have you tried changing the orientation of the gas nozzle? Maybe the gas flow is hitting a joint and causing a false fill?

I did try it. no bueno. Although I think I tried every possible orientation (I can only swing the handle 180deg due to the gunwale) I might need to explore that a bit further, my refueling attempt on that tank (after I ran dry) was a stressful one...

I ran out of gas in the port side tank in the middle of the NYC harbor, so I putzed around on single engine to the closest gas station which was the Liberty Marina, a very busy chalk full of big boats $7/gallon place, the 30 or 40 min I spent hogging the pump to trickle some gas in felt like eternity!

 

[swatski]

As a side note, I believe there are check valves in the Fill Cap and Carbon Canister. Such that air only enters the tank through the Fill Cap and exits only through the Carbon Canister.

Fantastic! This is the info I have been looking for but couldn't find anywhere, it does make sense and gives me a sense of direction in my attempt to attack the problem.
Before I throw in the towel and seek professional help! lol

 

[haknslash]

I wonder if previous owner ran ethanol fuel and there might be some deterioration inside somewhere in the lines or vent? The fact your tank was empty or near empty on that side, maybe your dealer knew it was a PITA to fill that side as well. Hate it when a dealer won’t work with you but like you said they’re several states away so not a lot of good they could do anyways.

 

[swatski]

I wonder if previous owner ran non-ethanol fuel and there might be some deterioration inside somewhere in the lines or vent? The fact your tank was empty or near empty on that side, maybe your dealer knew it was a PITA to fill that side as well. Hate it when a dealer won’t work with you but like you said they’re several states away so not a lot of good they could do anyways.

All good thoughts! No way of telling, other than just roll up my sleeves and try to figure this out.
The dude who owned it, apparently buys new boats every two-three years, I'm positive he does not wrench on them or clean them, lol.

This from @TeenGee has been the most enlightening statement, as I have thought of it the wrong way - I assumed the cap vent vents both way. If it doesn't, as he said, that means either cap or canister vents' blocking would cause my problems.

As a side note, I believe there are check valves in the Fill Cap and Carbon Canister. Such that air only enters the tank through the Fill Cap and exits only through the Carbon Canister.

 

[swatski]

As a side note, I believe there are check valves in the Fill Cap and Carbon Canister. Such that air only enters the tank through the Fill Cap and exits only through the Carbon Canister.

Thinking about it, fueling at a "normal rate" is several gallons a minute - the air must be escaping at a pretty good clip. So - if all that air evacuates via the carbon canister line/vent only, and not through the fuel cap vent, that carbon canister line/vent must be in tip top shape to permit the large volume of air passing through; that vent must be working 100% - probably where I will start.

 

[TeenGee]

Thinking about it, fueling at a "normal rate" is several gallons a minute - the air must be escaping at a pretty good clip. So - if all that air evacuates via the carbon canister line/vent only, and not through the fuel cap vent, that carbon canister line/vent must be in tip top shape to permit the large volume of air passing through; that vent must be working 100% - probably where I will start.

With the Fill Cap open, the air should escape through both the Carbon Canister and the Fill Vent. Most should exit through the Fill Vent due to the larger diameter, shorter path than the Carbon Canister path. If there is a check valve in the Carbon Canister path that would further restrict flow out the Carbon Canister path forcing more to exit through the Fill Vent.
I would expect most of the air would exit the Fill Vent when fueling.

 

[swatski]

With the Fill Cap open, the air should escape through both the Carbon Canister and the Fill Vent. Most should exit through the Fill Vent due to the larger diameter, shorter path than the Carbon Canister path. If there is a check valve in the Carbon Canister path that would further restrict flow out the Carbon Canister path forcing more to exit through the Fill Vent.
I would expect most of the air would exit the Fill Vent when fueling.

Okay. Then I'm back to square one! lol
If there is no one-directional valve on the fill vent, the carbon canister vent shouldn't really matter much, just looking at the diameter of those lines.
Will need to tackle it in phases. Might start with cap fill/vent lines though.
Thanks again for helping me think through this!

 

[TeenGee]

Any check valve on the fill side would be built into the Fill Cap itself.
I'm pretty sure the Fill Vent is just a hose which should have no obstructions.
I agree with starting by verifying there are no obstructions in the Deck Fill And Fill Vent hoses.

btw, I was born in Summit and lived in Madison decades ago.

 

[swatski]

Any check valve on the fill side would be built into the Fill Cap itself.
I'm pretty sure the Fill Vent is just a hose which should have no obstructions.
I agree with starting by verifying there are no obstructions in the Deck Fill And Fill Vent hoses.

btw, I was born in Summit and lived in Madison decades ago.

Thanks a bunch!

 

[zipper]

As said, the vent will absolutely effect filling ability. That inlet valve works in conjunction with the vent. If the vent does not free flow, air will want to be displaced back up thru the filler valve which the filler valve may not like. Is there any back pressure on the vent beyond what a trap might have. My $.02.

 

[Mesa50]

I believe if you disconnect the vent hose from the carbon filter inlet, you should be able to tell where the problem is. If you are able to fill the tank with the hose disconnected, the problem should be from the charcoal filter outward. If the tank doesn’t fill with the hose disconnected, the problem is somewhere between the filler tube and the tank vent elbow. Have someone hold the disconnected end of the vent hose while you are filling so they can put their finger over the hole if fuel starts coming out. Fuel shouldn’t come out if you keep the hose pointed towards the sky. Unless the tank completely fills up, and pushes fuel out the top of the hose.