Starting issues 2015 AR192 @help

[Brody2012]

I’m having a really hard time getting my boat to start the first time. It takes SEVERAL attempts. Each week it seems to be getting worse. I bought this boat in mid June or so and have taken the boat out every weekend since. This problem Started occurring about 4 weekends ago. Once the boat finally cranks and I’m on the water it has no trouble starting up the rest of the day. I should note the gauge reads 12.4 volts usually before trying to start and the spark plugs were changed this past spring.

 

[tdonoughue]

In what month were the plugs changed? April-ish, 2020? Or 2019? And if you got the boat in June, I assume that the PO told you they changed them (rather than knowing first hand).

For 12.4v, I am assuming that it has no problems cranking? Just cranks and cranks and cranks before it starts?

What is the fuel situation? Have you run the tank way down yet since you bought it? Or are you refilling at 1/3 down? Treat it with anything?

Try this: Next time out, turn on the ignition just to on and wait for a few seconds. Then try to start. You may also have a weak fuel pump... But hopefully it is simpler than that. My bet right now is fuel...

 

[Brody2012]

Plugs were changed 2020 and correct this was from PO but he really took care of this boat so I trust that is true.

correct it’s sounds to me like it’s turning strong just not firing. While it’s cranking the voltage drops to maybe 11.2 V. Only reason I mentioned battery is because I have no charges the batteries and with a 12.4 reading I haven’t felt the need to but wanted to make sure that wasn’t to low voltage for starting.

I have yet to run it down past 1/4 tank and I have not treated it with anything. Is there something you recommend I treat it with? And I will try that out in the morning and see if that helps.

 

[tdonoughue]

Well, normally we would say first, change the plugs. But that is way too soon for plug issues (and you would probably have ongoing starting issues).

I don't think you have an electrical/battery problem. 11.2 is a little low, but while cranking it is difficult to get a good reading. If it is still cranking strongly, you have enough juice to start.

So, to the fuel. You may have a little bad fuel in the tank or water. It may be separating while the boat sits (and it is trying to start from that), but when it gets mixed with enough good stuff you have no issues. Might try some SeaFoam. That is good for when you have issues (it is a stabilizer and a de-waterer). I treat with Stabil 360 every time I fill--I never know when I will be going back out with the boat, so this is cheap insurance.

Next thing I would think to check then would be the fuel pump (depending on if that 'turn on and let it sit before starting' trick works). Unless someone else around here has some additional thoughts...

 

[Brody2012]

Ok I will turn the key and wait tomorrow just curious is that going to allow more priming of the fuel line?

 

[tdonoughue]

In theory. It can be a way to figure out if you have a weak fuel pump. If it is not pumping up to snuff, it may not be bringing fuel all the way up through the line for the first start fast enough. But it may still have enough umph to pump when the fuel is already up there.

The alternative is to buy a pressure gauge, disconnect the fuel line, attach the gauge and then find in the service manual what the pressure is supposed to be. That is a lot more hassle and requires parts most folks don't have.

So, we are trying to rule out/try all of the easy stuff first.

 

[Brody2012]

Ok thanks so much I will update tomorrow

 

[Brody2012]

Ok so I decided to charge batteries over night just to rule them out and this morning I turned the key and waited then tried to start to no avail. I decided to just replace the plugs I was only able to get two of the plugs today oreillys will have the other two tomorrow. I’m going to post a picture of the two plugs I removed. I also took videos of trying to start I’m going to post if I cam figure out how.

 

[Brody2012]

 

[Brody2012]

the first video is of the engine while cranking. The second link is a video of the back of the boat appearing to back fire I assume

 

[tdonoughue]

It sounds like you have some combustion there. That cranking sounds like it is getting 1 or 2 cylinders? Would love to see if others agree with me there.

And those plugs! Why are they so rusted? That does not make sense if they were just changed 5 months ago. The electrodes don't look that bad, but I am wondering how much moisture is getting into your plug wires if they look like that. Or if they were really changed 5 months ago.

When you get your 2 plugs, also check for spark on all cylinders.

Were you able to get the Sea Foam?

 

[Brody2012]

I know... the rust really concerned me. It was only on the nut portion of the plug but still. I looked up into both of those coil packs and did not see any rust or corrosion in there luckily. I picked up 4 cans of sea foam. So I have a 30 gallon fuel tank do you suggest I dump 2 oz per gallon of sea foam into the fuel tank? Also should I pour any down the spark plug holes or what?

 

[Brody2012]

Another thought I’ve had is squirt some starter fluid but the location of the throttle body kinda would make this difficult to do. What really makes me scratch my head is that this started seldom. It would be kinda difficult to start first time but after the first start I could fire it right up the rest of the day no problem. At this point it nearly will not even start up. This is something that has actually progressively got worse each week. Monday when I last took it out it was a PIA to start but once it did it ran perfect! No stutter same top speed as always and WOT 7300 Rpms which is how it’s been since I first got it. I will note it has 273 hours had 250 when I got it in June

 

[tdonoughue]

I don't remember the dosage on the Sea Foam, but whatever the bottle says. Put that in. I would not put it anywhere else--that is adding more factors to the mix.

Starter fluid does not seem like the right option, either. The fuel pump is not mechanical. And your battery is fine. So the fuel pump should be pumping, and starter fluid should not affect it.

The backfire is interesting. That can be bent valves, fuel mixture off or timing. If you had bent values or the timing was off, that would not have gone away after it started. Remaining is fuel. But that is not making sense to me yet because, again, mixture issues would not go away once you started running.

Do you have the other 2 plugs changed?

Then if you are still not starting, I think we go back to basics: compression, spark and fuel. Check spark on all 4 plugs. Check compression on all cylinders. And you just treated the fuel. The only other fuel part that I would do would be to pull the air filters and see if it is starting better (if those are clogged, you get less air, too much fuel, etc.).

 

[Brody2012]

I will not be able to pick up the other two plugs till tomorrow. I’m going to do all the above you just mentioned and feed back. It’s just crazy I have zero running issues. I’m hoping them other 2 plugs and some sea foam are the key.

 

[Brody2012]

Ok all 4 new spark plugs in. Sea foam in. Removed air filter (it was dirty) left air filter out.
no change still will not start.
so now I’m checking for spark at each plug this is how I did it:

unplugged all 4 coils removed coil pack and spark plug from number 1 plugged in coil pack and turned over engine. Good spark on number 1.
Repeat on number 2 no spark. Plugged number 2 into number 1 harness and got spark. Exact same thing on number 3. Get to number 4 and it’s good.

so number 1 and number 4 are firing but number 2 and 3 are not. I know the coil packs are good because I can plug them into number 1 or 4 and get spark. Again I’m no auto mechanic but I would assume all 4 should be firing correct? If so what would cause number 2 and 3 not to fire? I’m really stumped here.

 

[haknslash]

I'm wondering if you might have a bad cam position sensor. Do you have any check engine faults on your display?

Also do you have a compression gauge?

 

[Brody2012]

No faults. And I do but I haven’t done that yet. Pretty positive compression is good. I’m really thinking it’s an ignition issue. Especially now seeing the number 2 and 3 had no spark. 2 weekends ago for example it would be hard to start at the ramp but once it fires the first time I could sit idle two minutes turn it off then fire it right back up no issue. We could go eat boat be sitting for an 1 hour and half fire back up no issue. That initial start of the day has gotten harder and harder an harder and right now I can’t even get it to start.

 

[tdonoughue]

I called it on 2 cylinders not working...

Cam position sensor is a good thought. The other is (gasp) ECU, right? The packs are properly ruled out, as are the plugs.

Not sure yet why it would be progressively worse, though. Or why it would be bad on initial startup but then be fine restarting. Unless the engine was so hot that the lack of spark was not noticeable--basically dieseling (could happen...). Even if that were the case, I don't think you wouldn't notice. You would still have a rough idle at least.

On the cam position sensor... If it failed, would that not show the ECU no movement of the cam, and therefore no spark anywhere?

 

[Brody2012]

Ok I had some thought on the ECU and that scares me after I looked at the price... oh dear god 1200 dollars. I still want to buy a legit spark tester to be 100 percent correct before I move on although I’m 99.9 percent (I check for spark the old fashioned way and got a good few shocks) Any idea on where the crank sensor is an how to check it? Also I contacted the previous owner and he said he also once had an issue with starting on first round and that he remedied this buy turning the key three times to prime better and never had anymore issues. I tried this though per your advice and that didn’t help and I’m also assuming this backfiring is coming from the excess gas that’s being dumped in with no start so I really don’t think fuel is the issue.

so how to check crank sensor and is there anyway I can check ecu?