Adding an amp and mid speakers to my 242

[Shookie]

I installed a new Fusion head unit on my swim deck today because the volume knob broke off of my old one. Been reading some other threads and got me thinking about some upgrades to my sound system. Everything right now is stock. 6 Polk DB652 speakers in the boat plus JL 770's and the tweeters in the tower. So added up that's 8 speakers plus the tweeters.

Currently Zone 1 (front) is the bow speakers and the tweeters. Zone 2 (back) is everything else (tower JL's, rear cockpit and swim deck.

My main goal is more volume for the driver (me). I end up cranking the system up nearly all the way and people up front and in the rear seats complain the volume its too high. I'm not looking for my boat to be the party barge with 10,000 watts blasting for all to hear. From what I've read (and it makes sense), it sounds like adding 2 speakers in the middle of the boat is what I need.

So, if I add 2 speakers that puts me up to 10 speakers plus tweeters being driven by the Fusion. It's rated 4 x 50W (@ 4 Ohms). My overall volume will drop and that assumes I can add 2 more to that head. Adding a new amp makes a ton of sense to increase the overall volume level without having to turn the volume up all the way which brings distortion and shit sound quality.... I can get 2 more of the Polk for $89 which is appealing. I can't see much of a reason to get anything different.

A subwoofer is intriguing. Someone posted a cheap JL for like $110 which sounds like a ridiculous low price. I just don't know that I want to lose space where it would go.

For an amp, not sure how many channels I want to run. I'm also not sure how the tweeters factor into this. The Polk's are rate 100W continuous and the JL's are 70W continuous at 4 ohms. If I went with a 5 channel amp, that means I'm running at 2 ohms right? Not sure what the tweeters would do. I could disconnect those (although I read someone mention that they sound better with the mid speakers installed). If I went with a 4 channel amp, am I pushing 1 ohm then? The Fusion unit is pushing all of these now minus the added pair of speakers I will add. The JL MX500 perhaps?

First post.... looking to get ideas/recommendations and for others to validate my thinking.... I haven't even thought about the exact locations and wiring yet. Have a few more threads to read to get ideas. I'll do this all on my own to keep the costs down so need help from this forum. Thanks!

 

[212s]

First off, if you don't have an amp, you need one for all those speakers.

Polk DB652 speakers are 60w RMS 100w peak, confirmed by Polk Audio USA. The 100/300w rating is at max distortion rating from the Chinese manufacturer who also makes the packaging, and more = better for their marketing.

As for impedance, you need to check the wiring for speakers. The head unit can not drive anything less than 4 ohms, which means most or all wiring is in series. The head unit also might be rated 50wx4 but it's more like 5wx4 of clean power.

As for channels, do what you need, but ideally 1 speaker per channel, or 2 per in parallel with a good amp. I have the MX500/4 and it's got a lot more than the Polks can handle...I have to tune it down a few dB's so I don't blow the Polks.

There's tons of posts here about audio upgrades...you should be able to find what you need to know...?

 

[Shookie]

Thanks for the info. I've spent hours reading old threads and saving pictures.

I absolutely plan to add 2 speakers to the mid cabin to get more volume to me while I'm driving. With 10 speakers, I would really need a 5 channel amp, unless I leave 2 speakers on the Fusion head unit. Read that some folks keep the swim deck and tower tweeters on the head unit. If I did that, could get away with the 4 channel amp. I'm trying not the break the bank. Those Rockville amps are so damn tempting, but I don't want to deal with a lemon.

Thoughts on using the head unit?

Edit: What about getting a 4 channel amp and using 3 channels for the 6 speakers in the bow and main seating area and using the 4th channel for the tower and swim deck?

 

[212s]

Thoughts on using the head unit?

I pondered using the head unit for the swim platform speakers, but decided against it as the residual heat from the exhaust will heat up the stern of the boat and might make running the heat unit too hot. The Fusion are supposed to be made decently, but I figured I would let the amp do the work as intended and it has a lot more oomph than the Fusion.

Edit: What about getting a 4 channel amp and using 3 channels for the 6 speakers in the bow and main seating area and using the 4th channel for the tower and swim deck?

Channels must be in pairs for proper left/right balance...doing that would mess up the sound field and you'd have left or right sounds coming out of both sides of the boat or similar messed up sound field.

You have all those speakers in the boat which can really sound good with a decent amp...don't cheap out too much or you're wasting money...might as well get the right amp to drive them properly. Don't bother with a 5-ch either, as the 5th is usually a mono/sub channel. Get a pair of 4-ch or a 4-ch plus a 2-ch or a 6-ch.

 

[Adrian @ JB Solutions]

That subwoofer is IB - so you can put it somewhere and lose 0 space.

 

[Shookie]

That subwoofer is IB - so you can put it somewhere and lose 0 space.

Yeah under the throttle controls would be the spot I would choose.... I see how some put it in the storage compartments and I would never do that, always have too much stuff in there (coolers, grill, etc).

For me right now, it's all a price thing. The boss doesn't want me spending that much. For her, the stereo is fine as is. In principle she's agreed that it could be better. But if I start talking about $1,000 for a couple amps, speakers, sub, etc I'm gonna get shutdown. I have a kid starting college in the fall and a big ass bill is coming my way.

I'm generally a person that doesn't buy the cheap stuff because it's just that.... cheap. But I have to keep this economical to be able to do it. A $1,000 JL 8 channel amp isn't in the realm of possibility. I've looked at Rockville and the price point is great, I just worry about it crapping out and then having to deal with that. Skar and Boss are A/B amps and would rather stay away from those. I was reading up on the Clarion XC2410 last night. A couple of those cost less than 1 JL MX500.... but they are "only" 50W. I know that's more than my Fusion is putting out and would probably be all I need..... A Rockville 8 channel amp is $190 by comparison.

There are some cheaper Kicker, MB Quart, and Kenwood amps that are priced OK. Looking at Crutchfield, there are brands I've never heard of like NavAtlas and Soundstream. So many decisions and I'm trying to balance my wife, cost, complexity, quality, brand, etc. my brain is fried

 

[Shookie]

I pondered using the head unit for the swim platform speakers, but decided against it as the residual heat from the exhaust will heat up the stern of the boat and might make running the heat unit too hot. The Fusion are supposed to be made decently, but I figured I would let the amp do the work as intended and it has a lot more oomph than the Fusion.

Channels must be in pairs for proper left/right balance...doing that would mess up the sound field and you'd have left or right sounds coming out of both sides of the boat or similar messed up sound field.

You have all those speakers in the boat which can really sound good with a decent amp...don't cheap out too much or you're wasting money...might as well get the right amp to drive them properly. Don't bother with a 5-ch either, as the 5th is usually a mono/sub channel. Get a pair of 4-ch or a 4-ch plus a 2-ch or a 6-ch.

Didn't even think about the L/R stuff.... been so long since I've done car audio type upgrades.....

 

[tabbibus]

Yeah under the throttle controls would be the spot I would choose.... I see how some put it in the storage compartments and I would never do that, always have too much stuff in there (coolers, grill, etc).

For me right now, it's all a price thing. The boss doesn't want me spending that much. For her, the stereo is fine as is. In principle she's agreed that it could be better. But if I start talking about $1,000 for a couple amps, speakers, sub, etc I'm gonna get shutdown. I have a kid starting college in the fall and a big ass bill is coming my way.

I'm generally a person that doesn't buy the cheap stuff because it's just that.... cheap. But I have to keep this economical to be able to do it. A $1,000 JL 8 channel amp isn't in the realm of possibility. I've looked at Rockville and the price point is great, I just worry about it crapping out and then having to deal with that. Skar and Boss are A/B amps and would rather stay away from those. I was reading up on the Clarion XC2410 last night. A couple of those cost less than 1 JL MX500.... but they are "only" 50W. I know that's more than my Fusion is putting out and would probably be all I need..... A Rockville 8 channel amp is $190 by comparison.

There are some cheaper Kicker, MB Quart, and Kenwood amps that are priced OK. Looking at Crutchfield, there are brands I've never heard of like NavAtlas and Soundstream. So many decisions and I'm trying to balance my wife, cost, complexity, quality, brand, etc. my brain is fried

I'm wathving this thread closely. We have the same boat and similar thoughts. Don't like "cheap" stuff but JL is not in the budget at this point in time.

What are a/b amps?

 

[VitaminSea]

What are a/b amps?

Here is a nice summary of the different types of amps. Many favor class D, due to its efficiency and package size.

Which amplifier class is the best? How Class D amplifier technology differs from Class A and AB

How Class D amplifier technology differs from Class A and AB

www.crutchfield.com

For the OP, another approach would be to build your system incrementally to control cost, and stick with a quality product that will continue to offer your value over the long run. You can add the speakers, and a smaller amp that you can later add onto. For example - take a look at the JL MX280/4 (~$300), I’m sure there are other alternatives as well from Clarion, etc. You could use this to power 4 or potentially all 8 of the speakers for now, and then when you decide to add a sub, pick up a 5 channel amp, and you should be all set. This approach might let you deliver improvement without breaking the bank and flexibility for future audio enhancements.

 

[Shookie]

Here is a nice summary of the different types of amps. Many favor class D, due to its efficiency and package size.

Which amplifier class is the best? How Class D amplifier technology differs from Class A and AB

How Class D amplifier technology differs from Class A and AB

www.crutchfield.com

For the OP, another approach would be to build your system incrementally to control cost, and stick with a quality product that will continue to offer your value over the long run. You can add the speakers, and a smaller amp that you can later add onto. For example - take a look at the JL MX280/4 (~$300), I’m sure there are other alternatives as well from Clarion, etc. You could use this to power 4 or potentially all 8 of the speakers for now, and then when you decide to add a sub, pick up a 5 channel amp, and you should be all set. This approach might let you deliver improvement without breaking the bank and flexibility for future audio enhancements.

Yeah, for some this works.... I'm a big proponent of do it once, the right way, and be happier longer. Normally this wouldn't be an issue but as I mentioned, I have a kid starting college this fall and have another in private high school. Big $$$ leaving my bank account soon...... I'd really prefer to do it all at once and get a system that performs better than what I have now. It's also easier to try and make this work with 1 amp if I can. A 2nd amp means more cost, more battery draw, albeit "better" sound.

I'm wondering what amp I would get if I have to power 5 pairs of speakers and 1 sub? Can an 8 channel amp do 4 channels for 8 speakers, 2 channels for the Sub and 2 channels for my tower speakers? I don't think you can run 6 channels for speakers and 2 for a sub and still have the crossovers work..... but I'm not sure. Something like this. If this could work, I'd get a Rcokville amp, try my luck and if it craps out in a year or two, replace it.



Another thought is to run some speakers off the Fusion unit. Get a 4 or 5 channel amp (5 if I add a sub) and run the 6 main speakers plus 2 towers off that. I guess doing that would allow an upgrade if there's not enough balls from the Fusion unit. I'm thinking this might be a better option for me right now.... It would look something like this.


Right now, the Fusion unit is driving 8 full range speakers plus the tweeters. If I'm only driving 2 speakers (and the tweeters), would I see more volume from them? I don't think there's any way to bridge the Fusion so I doubt it.....????

Appreciate the help and opinions!

 

[212s]

What are a/b amps?

Class of amplification method. Class D is the latest and most efficient which is best in cars and boats running off batteries. At home with "unlimited" A/C power class doesn't matter as much as you won't run out of juice.

 

[212s]

@Shookie you're going to have to decide how you want to proceed...I can tell you 100 ways to do this, with 100 different price points, but you need to make a decision on what you want to do. Spend a bit more now and get it done. Or do as @VitaminSea said and spread it out.

Oh wait...how about a new credit card the wife doesn't know about until after you get the bill?

 

[Shookie]

@Shookie you're going to have to decide how you want to proceed...I can tell you 100 ways to do this, with 100 different price points, but you need to make a decision on what you want to do. Spend a bit more now and get it done. Or do as @VitaminSea said and spread it out.

Oh wait...how about a new credit card the wife doesn't know about until after you get the bill?

I hear you.... and that’s part of why I’m writing a lot of this out and asking questions. Can I get away with an 8 channel amp? 6 channels for speakers and 2 for a sub? If so, I’ll get a $190 Rockville and try my luck. Or am I almost certainly looking at needing 2 - 4 channel amps? Is 50 watts RMS a big difference compared to stock or do I want 75?

Has anyone ran speakers off an amp and the Fusion head at the same time?

And that’s a no on the credit card. ?
If I waited until this winter, I would be able to spend more $$$ on it. I’m in a hurry because I’ve got multiple boating trips planning this summer and I’ve got time in the next couple weeks to do all the work....

 

[212s]

Can I get away with an 8 channel amp? 6 channels for speakers and 2 for a sub

Yes...not ideal probably as the towers and sub will likely need more power, but it'll work.

Is 50 watts RMS a big difference compared to stock or do I want 75?

Yes 50w/ch is a huge improvement over the stock head unit. You don't need 75w as that's only 1.5dB louder...barely noticeable. The goal is to get strong voltage with good damping to get the speaker cones moving for accurate and loud output. You can't do that with a weak amp.

Has anyone ran speakers off an amp and the Fusion head at the same time?

Yes I have...the Fusion has about 5w/ch of clean power...it can't get the speakers pumping. You need a strong amp with clean power to get clean volume...it's just physics and electrical fact. You can use cheap stuff and it'll "work"...won't be great and may not last, but it might be good enough.

 

[Shookie]

Yes 50w/ch is a huge improvement over the stock head unit. You don't need 75w as that's only 1.5dB louder...barely noticeable.

This helps... my brain was stuck on more wattage.

 

[Shookie]

I think I have made a final decision on what to do..... Going to buy a better amp now, add 2 speakers and plan for a winter upgrade to add 1 more amp and a subwoofer. Any upgrade I do now will be better than what I have, so I'll keep my costs down a bit and have a path to upgrade the rest later. I thought seriously about the 8 channel amp from Rockville, but it's not setup for 6 channels of speakers and a sub. So if I ever want to add a sub, I'm looking at 2 amps.

I am going to run the swim deck speakers off the Fusion unit for now. That lets me put the other 8 speakers (6 Polk 652's and 2 JL 7.7 towers) on the JL amp. I care most about good sound while running and no one is sitting on the swim deck seats while moving, so I'm not concerned with less volume there. While anchored and I'm in the water or on the beach, I'll get more sound/volume from the towers. Plan to add a USB charger on the port side since I'll be drilling holes.

Planned wiring plan below.... let me know if something looks off. Figured it's best to keep the 4 main cockpit speakers grouped together in Zone 1 and the bow/tower can be Zone 2. Gives me some adjustment will driving or when parked.


With a 4-channel amp and 8 speakers, I'll have to wire each pair in parallel. That means 2 ohm load on all 4 channels. The JL amp is rated for 70 watts RMS x 4 at 2 ohms so other than it perhaps running hotter, I shouldn't have any issues.... correct?



Tentative parts list.... I'm sure I'm missing something so please let me know if you see something I'm missing. Around $600 (before tax) for what I've listed.

• JL MX280/4 amp from Creative Audio
• Pair of Polk DB652's from Creative Audio
• 2-way fused distribution block for power (1/0 to 4 gauge) from KnuKonceptz
• 2-way fused distribution block for ground (1/0 to 4 gauge) from KnuKonceptz
• 14 gauge speaker wire (prob 150 ft, marine grade OFC) from KnuKonceptz
• RCA cables, probably from KnuKonceptz
• Spade connectors for the speakers
• Dual USB charger on port side
• Might add bus bars... not sure

I think I am going to go with mounting them in the battery area. This keeps my power run very short. Plenty of space in that area and I'm usually the only one in that compartment since that's where I keep tools, pump, flares, etc. Will route RCA cables from the head unit on the swim deck thru the engine compartment to the battery area.

Questions for everyone....

1. With a fused distribution block, I want to confirm I do not need an inline fuse on the 0AWG from the battery... correct?
2. On the Fusion unit, all of the controls to the Connext is via the NMEA cable, correct?
3. On the Fusion unit, I'll cut/disconnect all of the speakers (except he swim platform) and run RCA cables to the new amp, correct?
4. For the future, I would get another MX280/4 or maybe even an MX500/4. My thinking is I would bridge it to 2 channels and run the towers in parallel (2 ohm) on 1 channel and the sub on the other. The MX280 is 140 W RMS x 2. Other option is to run the towers on separate channels and bridge 2 for the sub. I would put the swim deck on the original MX280 amp. Sound reasonable?
5. What should the tweeters on the tower connect to? I'm not sure how they are even connected now....???? I could keep them on the Fusion unit I guess.
6. Should I add bus bars? I honestly don't think I have too many upgrades in the future....
7. Anything else you think I'm missing?

Long post..... appreciate the help! Getting excited!

 

[IvanRZB]

Very cool! A couple of comments:

1) If your terminal block is fused then you shouldn't need inline fusing on the battery cable, but do make sure you have plenty of spacing between 12V/GND coming into the fuse block--i.e., you don't want opportunity for a short *before* the fuse block.
2) If you end up using bus bars then add ring terminals to your parts list.
3) You mentioned you looked at parts in Crutchfield... their online chat or phone people are usually excellent and will let you bounce your ideas off them without pressure to buy. I've used them before and didn't feel like they were pushing me to spend more $$ or even to have to spend it with them.

 

[Shookie]

Very cool! A couple of comments:

1) If your terminal block is fused then you shouldn't need inline fusing on the battery cable, but do make sure you have plenty of spacing between 12V/GND coming into the fuse block--i.e., you don't want opportunity for a short *before* the fuse block.
2) If you end up using bus bars then add ring terminals to your parts list.
3) You mentioned you looked at parts in Crutchfield... their online chat or phone people are usually excellent and will let you bounce your ideas off them without pressure to buy. I've used them before and didn't feel like they were pushing me to spend more $$ or even to have to spend it with them.

I was going to get separate terminal blocks for power and ground. Leave a little space between them when they are mounted.

Yeah spent a good amount of time on Crutchfield's website.... They have the amp but not the speakers. Want to try and limit how many sites I buy stuff at to avoid shipping costs if I can.

 

[Shookie]

Amp (MX280/4) and Polk speakers are ordered. Decided to go ahead and order from Crutchfield. Now, I'm working on figure out wiring and everything I need.

I think I am going to push my batteries back some to make more room under this port seat for the new amp. Will have to change the power wiring from the batteries to the switches since I doubt it will be long enough. Anyone know what gauge wire runs from the battery to the switch?



I don't think I am going to go with 1/0 gauge wire. The MX280 pulls 35 amps and I only plan to have a few feet of wire. 35 amps at 5 foot length requires 12 AWG so if I go with 8 AWG, I'm still above and beyond what's needed. For future, if I have 2 amps and a USB charger running off 1 positive bus bar, I'm looking at 80 amps (5 feet requires 8 AWG). I'll run 4 AWG from the house switch to the new bus bar. See below and let me know if this schematic looks right.



Appreciate any input. Thanks!

 

[VitaminSea]

Nice diagrams. Glad you got your parts on order.

FWIW, I purchased some WindyNation 2AWG cables, and I was shocked at how pliable they were. Realize your not looking for 2AWG, just thought they were a nice cable. On my boat the battery cables were 4awg.