Blue Yonder Stereo Upgrade

[txav8r]

It would only be a momentary slosh up on the deck and onto them @David Analog . The won't go below water level except for backwash when you stop. That swim deck is now only inches off the water and it gets a rinse frequently. If I mounted them high on that lower wall, it would have them a good ways off the water and not likely they would ever be below water level, just washed every now and then. Obviously, there is a big difference in application there, if I have to have fabrication done to the seat backs. Also, the curvature of the wings isn't as desirable as the flat surface of that wall. I actually am considering moving the transom table mount inward as well as the stereo remote, and mounting the speakers out on the ends of that wall to get as much separation as possible. Would mounting them there, run sideways to any warranty JL provides?

 

[txav8r]

Well, I went all the way through all three levels of the stock JBL HU issues. Phil Dill ran it up the chain to Yamaha and replaced the harness and the remote. I still had uncontrollable volume and mode selection. So after a Yamaha claim denial, I called Yamaha customer service and was eventually given a $400 credit to cover the replacement with stereo HU (harness and remote) of my choice.

It was a tough decision, as I was attempting to put in whatever would keep me under the $400 and both the Sony DSX-S310BTX and the MEX-M70BT as well as the new Clarion CMD8 and their remotes including install would do it. All of those are used by Yamaha. With prodding by @Bruce and others, and the desired zone control, I asked PD about the Fusion and how much of a process and cost it might be to go that route. So with no hesitation, they said they stock it because it is the stereo on the Regal line that they also sold. Cost? Well, another plus...they only charge against their cost, not retail, on warranty items. I am replacing the stock JBL with the Fusion ip700i, and the MS-NRX200i digital remote, along with the MS-BT200 bluetooth unit, for $137 in parts above the $400 credit, plus install. Not sure if I need the BT, but will have it for when the iPod messes up. The boat is at PD and will be home next week with the install done. So with the HU issues behind me, I can move on with the speaker and amp. I am listening @Bruce , but I think power is needed behind it to be beneficial and full. And...if you have more than two zones on the 700, you must power them. I want speakers on the swim deck and have to add two in the cockpit as well. Then I need an amp to power them all plus a sub. Any more comments about this consideration? Bruce, I know you feel there is not a need for a sub or to add additional power to what the Fusion provides. That may be true at rest, but while running, I have to think it is needed. Also, adding two more speakers at a minimum and probably 4 total, with 4 zones, I will have to power zones 3 and 4 as it is a requirement of Fusion. If I am going to power some, might as well power all. Sub? It gives the coaxials a much greater and dynamic capability when you remove the requirement of supplying low frequency support below 80-120hz. Can't help but want to narrow this down with as much thought as possible. At least I am making progress!

 

[steined]

My next step is mid cabin coaxials. Probably the same 6.5 polks. Even with an amp, a sub, and tower tweters, the sound is lacking in the captain and co-captain area while under way! Sounds like you are on the right path to me!

 

[Bruce]

Mel, you will need an amp if you want to have more than two zones.

My setup is vastly different in that I installed the IP600 head unit then upgraded the four factory speakers to 6x9 component speakers with greater response per watt and lower frequency capability. The I added two more behind the swim deck seat backs. Eventually I will add the final two in the bow. I have two zones, inside and outside. Outside is the swim deck and bow which will mainly be used when parked. Each of the 6x9s is similar to an 8.

We can hear music clearly driving down the lake with the exception of frequency ranges blocked by the engine noise or wind are distorted. I have thought about using an equalizer to correct this.

 

[David Analog]

We can hear music clearly driving down the lake with the exception of frequency ranges blocked by the engine noise or wind are distorted. I have thought about using an equalizer to correct this.

Bruce,
An equalizer is unlikely to help that particular condition and here's why....
Let's say that you have wind and motor noise that mask those common frequencies produced by the stereo. And let's say that you need 10 dB of boost over that same bandwidth to adequately elevate the level of audio over the competing noise. 10 dB of boost translates to 10 times the amplifier power and 10 times the speaker excursion. The amplification is already running near full power when underway and does not have that level of reserve power available. You would get tons of distortion before you would make an impactful difference. It would work if for example you were at rest with some form of competing noise and the stereo was operating at just a fraction of its power potential.

 

[txav8r]

Thanks @Bruce and @David Analog . We have all had these discussions and sometimes what we want/have gets lost in the translation, as well as our explanations of what our setups do. I can tell you that a mere 60w into a JL MX650 will give you clear and identifiable music reproduction over the wind and engine noise. Is it losing any of the frequency delivery? Of course it is, but with the reserve boost to cover those losses, at least you get "some" of the reproduction of those frequencies but not like in an acoustically correct room. It is the one thing my wife liked about the stereo upgrade on the Dawg and is the selling point I am using to go ahead and do it on the Yonder...can hear and enjoy the music at cruise. Even that, "enjoy the music at cruise", is a subjective statement. If you have to play it so loud to overcome the engine/wind noise that it is deafening, some wouldn't enjoy that either. @jawsf16 has told me that his polk db651's with his pioneer amplifiers do a great job much cheaper than what I spent, and I agree, at anchor, what more do you need at lower levels. But I expect even the lower levels are clearer, crisper, and more tonally correct with the JLs that the Polks, at least the entry level polks. But where you really see the capability, is driving those MX650's and the sub in the upper ends of the amps capability, and hearing the wind/engine noise just disappear as it is replaced by the tunes. Some would say, well then you can't have a conversation. LOL, you can't have a conversation at cruise in these boats without yelling anyway! It is all relative and we all see things a tad differently. Bruce, I can't put 6x9's in the stock locations in the new boat, there isn't room. I could put in 770's, but why? Now that I think about it, maybe I could get away without a subwoofer if I did run 770's. But overall sound quality, and the ability of the coaxials as well as the sub to move further and make up the difference over engine/wind vs coaxials covering the entire frequency range all by themselves? I think that is the straw that breaks the camels back. And it is the difference of using a sub vs not using one. Taking the responsibility of low end range away from the coaxials makes them much more efficient because they now don't have to cover the same frequency distance, and can be pushed harder because of it. Is it worth the money to do all this? Hmm, is a boat worth it to you and your family? Many wouldn't give you any amount for a boat, others go out on a limb to have one. It is subjective and personal, and we all have our own personal idea of nirvana. My wife really likes to hear the lapping of the water against the boat, the birds, the fish jump, the breeze, etc...kinda makes it hard to justify the expense on a stereo upgrade when she doesn't care to hear it on the water...except when running across the water with hair blowing and Black Dog thumping the boat and drowning out the ambient noise! Speaking of...

enjoy!

 

[txav8r]

It is official...I have settled on my stereo equipment and pick it up tomorrow!!! I am purchasing this from
Earmark Car Audio
3132 W Parker Rd, Plano, TX 75075
(972) 612-6886
Odin Mattes purchased this store from David Stein last year I believe. The Lewisville, Plano, and online stores are separate now but Odin has the online and Plano division. Joe has the Lewisville division. Both have marine capability and the techs to address your needs. This is my second time to work with Earmark and I can tell you that the knowledge and assistance you gain from having Odin help you will be amazing. These guys have been around the metroplex for many years, and have a vast knowledge of the audio/video/lighting business in its application to cars and boats.
I will replace the existing 4 Seaworthy coaxials with
JL MX 650's
I will add 2 MX650's in the cockpit in the combing pockets beside the glovebox on the passenger side and beside the throttles on the helm side.
I will add 2 MX650's on the transom wall between the two swim decks.
I will add an M10iB5 10" infinite baffle subwoofer in the cockpit area somewhere to be determined.
And for power...I will add two external amps
JL M600/6
JL M500/3
Both of these amps contain 60W amps for a total of 11 of them. Three power the subwoofer, and each speaker gets 60W of dedicated, clean, Class D power. This leaves headroom and will give me what I had on the Nauti Dawg per speaker and at the sub. But I will have an additional two speakers delivering that same capability! Looking forward to the install, and to the help along the way! I added dual group 27 AGM batteries last week, attached to a Blue Sea 5511e dual battery switch and ACR, with two 150A busses that serve as an ACC and ground bus. I ran 2GA marine, tinned, cable for all connections since I intend to power 1100 watts of amplifiers with the group. I will run 2GA power and ground, with a 80 amp fuse at the battery compartment, to the helm distribution blocks, where I will run 4GA to each amp. Personally I have missed my upgraded stereo on the Dawg everyday since I sold her...and this one will make up for lost time with very little difference, except for two more speakers to fill in the void! Two more speakers being driven by 60W each will add 25% more in up front sound, and in the main compartment where it is needed...the cockpit, and I will still be powering that great IB subwoofer with 180W. This is a mild system. It is not some of the earth shattering setups we see. IMO, this is the minimum you do to get both the easy listening and full speed ahead music in your boat. Many will tell you "we can hear the music". Hearing and believing are two very different things. Power behind the speaker is important, and an efficient and capable speaker is paramount. Can't wait to let the music play!

EDIT: I ended up getting the M10W5, an acoustic suspension driver, instead of the IB driver. I stated this later in the thread but think this might be misleading here so wanted to edit this.

 

[David Analog]

http://www.pasmag.com/car-audio/reports/2516-jl-audio-xd5003-amplifier-review

^^^Here is an interesting independent PasMag review on the JL Audio XD500/3. It exceeded its 500 watt rating by 35% producing a total of 673 watts into a 2-ohm load with a 14.4 volt supply. You can expect this same conservatively rated performance on every JL Audio XD amplifier.
More importantly it exceeded its 14.4V rated power with a 12.6V supply and maintained 97% of its 1kHz power across the entire audio bandwidth.....which is extremely rare.

Odin's crew just installed an audio system in my new Airstream RV with DSP and full time correction. Sounds unbelievable!

Mel, have Odin show you the outfitted Razor.

Joe's Lewisville crew and Odin's Plano crew are doing some amazing things.

 

[txav8r]

I bet you have great destinations awaiting in that new Airstream! We covered the US, Canada, and Mexico in the 70's with a motorhome my dad found pre-owned back then. We put 9000 miles a summer on it for 3 years. Unbelievable experience and memories. So enjoy the travel and that new sound system. I am going to have to google the DSP. I will have to see the Razor too! I know too well that marketing and hype take over the audio industry, you have to love a USA company that goes toe to toe with the world and not only holds its own, but holds up a higher standard when it comes down to it, not only in ratings, but in quality too. I have been testing out that MS-IP700i Fusion HU and it is a great HU...but it is an HU, not an amplifier, no matter what they market it as. I would like to see the pasmag report on it, I am sure it would be great in terms of an HU, but I doubt they would report that the internal amp was all it was claimed to be. Still an amazing HU and I am going to love that. But I am really going to love having my JL Audio back in my boat! @David Analog , you enjoy that RV and I want to thank you for the input you have given us both here, and previous!

 

[David Analog]

DSP = audio signal management in the digital domain including amplitude, time and frequency. The ability to correct for the distance differences between multiple speaker locations and the point of perception. Includes a full spectrum EQ.
In most vehicles the left and right speaker output reach you at a different amplitude and with different arrival time. So the sound is localized from the dominant point and any chance of a soundstage is ruined. The sound is generally smeared and erratic no matter how good the equipment is. Enter DSP. When the system is dialed in the image is elevated to ear/eye level with depth (forward of the dash) and width (pillar to pillar). And once you have corrected the time domain you have automatically corrected phase and frequency response abnormalities. The bass appears to completely emanate from the front with transients that crack like a whip. Vocals appear in air.
Listen to the very moderate Audison system Odin has in soundroom #3. There are eight drivers and not one can be localized. It's just a huge image.
Earmark has been doing this since the advent of DSP from Sony ES and Alpine F1 Status, about 20 years ago.
DSP mainly applies to cars, trucks, and SUVs. But there are a few over-the top boat systems incorporating DSP.
However, many of Odin's system tuning principles for the basic system are based on managing phase and can make a big difference in the same equipment.

 

[txav8r]

@PEARCE and @David Analog , I picked up the gear today for the final leg of my stereo upgrade. You guys made a little more work for me, but I expect as both of you did, that I will be pleased with the extra effort! Instead of the infinite baffle subwoofer that I used in the Nauti Dawg, I listed to Pearce and felt I needed to at least ask the question I asked then, of David, who used to own Earmark Marine. So to you David, thank you once again for the detailed and excellent explanation of what I had, why, what I wanted, and how to get there. Like you said today, much of what we do is a compromise. Putting in a sub and then not optimizing it is leaving money on the table. Just like not matching speaker to the power behind it. I used the M10iB5 infinite baffle sub in my previous install. I did so because it was a good compromise between labor, cost, and performance. As David said, "things have changed". I no longer am intimidated by either boat upgrades or audio installs. So adding a more complex housing and using it isn't a deterent. So instead of making a compromise, I intend to get 100% of the performance out of the sub this time around. An IB gives up some, a vented sub gives up some, and a ported sub gives up some...but a sealed enclosure with 100% of the driver in the listening environment gives you 100% of the delivery. Thanks guys for the education and time to bring me around...again!

I also got a chance to listen to the Processors that Odin had installed at the Plano location of Earmark today...all I can say is WOW! That is the DSP technology you installed in your RV I guess David, or similar? And I saw the Razor project they just completed. Offroad at its best, with RGB LED lighting and JL Audio!

I need two weeks off to get this into the boat and I may even pull the boat down to Plano and let Odin and his team mess with it to put the center of the stage right in between the helm and copilots seat! Great work Earmark!

 

[Earmark Marine]

Thanks Mel, and good luck with your project! This isn't your first install so I'm sure it will go smooth.

 

[Jebinok]

Mel, Earmark did my install, I have not had any problems. If I do i will just replace the speakers. Good luck.

 

[brockhals]

Awesome Mel! didn't take long to get an upgrade. As I was reading thru this thread I was thinking you needed to do two amps to run all that (since that's what @David Analog recommended I do). I'm running 6 MX650s off a M400/4 (Bow and Cockpit), then a M500/3 for my sub and transom speakers. My transom speakers have their own level control so I can operate them almost 100% independently from the others. I say almost 100% as it is still dependent on the HU volume level as a variable (i.e. if it's not up very high, I have to crank the level control to get good volume). Not an issue most days so the boat can stay somewhat quiet while I jam as loud as I want on the back (even to the beach!!). Only change I'd make is to have two subs instead of the one...but then you're talking another amp change and that's not in my future at the moment (unless I get a tower anyway)

 

[txav8r]

Great info guys! Looking forward to getting it finished...don't you hate when work slows you down?

 

[txav8r]

@Jebinok , I appreciate you posting the picks and details!!!! I have been struggling a tad as to where to locate the new cockpit speakers. I hate to put the port speaker in the foot well below the port lounger, because it is Always a lounger in our boat. Hut it is good to see the location. If I put it in the combing pocket, it will block the glove box from full opening position. I am still groaning at the loss if storage with the sub in the starboard locker. But I want the enclosure vs the IB sub. The transom install helps Jeb! Going to get this finished! Thanks for the pics! Is the Saturday night party at y'all's house?

 

[Jebinok]

Mel, sure my home is always open to friends and jetboaters needing a place to hang out. If I'm not there I'll tell ya where the spare key is and make yourself at home! Call me if I'm not there and I soon will be, I dont want to miss a party!

 

[steined]

Mel, I'm curious to see where you place the mid cabin speakers. I too don't want to use the footwell as ours is always a lounger as well.

 

[txav8r]

@steined , I know the footwell isn't optimal for us, but it would still add to the overall fullness and richness of sound, it just wouldn't be right by the passenger.

 

[BravoMike]

"Fusion ip700i, and the MS-NRX200i digital remote, along with the MS-BT200 bluetooth"

@txav8r, this is the setup I am planning on installing for next summer to finish up the stereo upgrade. Oh, forgot about swim deck speakers (have not decided what I want to do yet). Once you have installed, let me know next time you are out on Ray Roberts. Would love to come see it and how it works.