Boat Stereo/Battery Upgrades

[FloJet]

Ok fellow Jet Boaters, I am creating this thread to lend my hand out to people that want the big stereo upgrades. Here in Oklahoma I have learned no one does it better than us. I can give you my current setup but you will have to PM for it. But I'm kinda frustrated on all the false and invaluable information folks are posting about systems and battery upgrades.

To start, my current system of 2 WS rev410 and 2 12' subs are a force to be recon with. Pound for pound, there are not many boats out there that can compete with it. Sure many can beat me with over stocked subs to get more base than me, but no way those same systems can compete with my mids/highs and best of them all RUNTIME. I am able to run pretty much 2 full lake days without breaking a sweat. These same systems utilize 4 to 6 subwoofers and can barely play consistent for 2 hours at a time. Shoot the Party cove just got started at that point. Everywhere we go, by sunset, guess who's boat is still rocking the cove?

So this first post will focus on battery upgrade and ohms. Sorry but no time for science lessons here. Just going to give you as much as answers as I can as this is an open book open teacher test.

I see everyone buying 12v group 27, 29, 31, and all that seems fine and dandy and all but what about the costs associated with them? It still baffles me that folks still go the 12v route. Sure you can get 12v batteries in around 105 amp hours to 205 amps but that will surely cost you an arm and leg and still not a true deep cycle battery which in turns will not give you all those amp hours they advertise. Many top notch systems here in Oklahoma will not utilize 12v batteries because of it not being a true deep cycle battery even thou they state that.

So the winner here is a 6v golf cart battery (True deep cycle battery IMO). I run (4) 235 amp hour batteries wired in series and parallel giving me a total of 470 amp hours. But to be honest with the efficiency of these 6v batteries, I believe that number is under rated. Down here you can get a 235 amp hour 6v golf cart battery for $100 with core exchange. So way cheaper than buying a 235 amp hour 12v battery. Cost is not comparable. Runtime is not comparable either.

Now the 2nd biggest problem I see with the system upgrades, is many are trying to run their systems on 2 ohms or even lower for the subs. I always ask why on a boat? Sure you can get deep bass at the cost of run time. With the right 4ohm stable amps and equipment, you can get the same output with more runtime as you are restricting the power draw. I would never run anything lower than 4 ohms on a boat. Less power draw means more play time.

So again if you have any questions about stereo upgrades or need advise, keep them coming and I and I'm sure other more educated installers will chime in and help you out. Good luck this winter on your upgrades and keep those photos coming.

Once we get the batteries and ohms situated with everyone, we can than move on to wire running, tuning of the systems and what music apps/cables to use as all these can make a big difference and I will get more in depth as the time comes.

 

[gpp7824]

... pulls up a chair, notepad, pencil and is ready to learn...

 

[FloJet]

Pic of the battery setup. Still going to give it a more cleaner look this winter. Kinda thru it all together during the boat season, now working for neat look.

 

[DCB-270]

Are you with a store in Moore?

 

[FloJet]

No sir. Can't stand shops. I usually have a shop run all my tower wiring and power wires and I do all the hook ups myself. I'm just lazy when it comes to drilling the tower to fish out wires and all. But for the component construction and tuning, I don't believe the shops have a good understanding of it all. All they want is my install money without any regards to detail and clarity.

 

[Firehouse100]

With that set up are saying 470 total or each bank? Also is there a weight difference with 6 vs 12 volt batts?

 

[DCB-270]

@maboat was telling me he is using 6v golf cart batteries in his boat.

 

[MattFX4]

sweet man. Crown batteries are the real deal. I have 6 8 volt 190 AH crown's in my golf cart. They are heavy though! Interested in learning more about your set up.

 

[Mainah]

Short version for those interested in the batteries ... voltage is relative in amp hour ratings and that was not covered above. See bold section below for more detail.

@FloJet - Great to have your experience and knowledge on board. Looking forward to learning a few things and having healthly open debates. Below are my educated opinions on the opinions you expressed.

• No one doing it better than Oklahoma. Don't know about that but Texans may certainly disagree Certainly some awesome boats and sound systems in Oklahoma from what I have seen online and I think Oklahoma is a great state.
• 12 inch subs are more efficient than 10 inch subs. I agree. The power needed to displace a given amount of air is less due to the surface area and the efficiency of the motor (voice coil and magnet). However some people choose 10 inch for surface location, mounting depth, or available air space reasons. Everything is a personal balancing act between storage, ballast, coolers, and sound system on boats of the size most on here have.
• 2 ohms vs. 4 ohms. I agree that 4 ohms is better for efficiency except when using matched true two ohm amps and speakers which is very rare. The issue with 2 ohms is more energy loss to heat when using a 4 ohm amp to drive a 2 ohm load even when that 4 ohm amp is 2 ohm stable.
• 6v vs. 12v batteries. I disagree. I believe you only have half of the equation literally. Battery amp hour ratings are based upon their watt hours and voltage. Amp hours = watt hours/volts. Mathematically a 100 amp hour 6v nominal rated battery has the same amount of watts as a 50 amp hour 12 volt nominal rated battery. Of course battery ratings are a finicky thing. Are they being rated at their nominal voltage or something else? Are the results being normalized over the voltage drop? What is the cutoff voltage being used?
• True Deep Cycle. Agree on efficiency. Agree to disagree on what is best for a boat or anything that moves. Yes is true that a real flooded deep cycle will hands down beat a marine deep cycle (which is really a start/deep cycle hybrid) on efficiency and life span but the marine battery will deliver more cranking amps (given the size of your banks you should have plenty of cranking amps with deep cycle). Hands down winner on marine deep cycle vs. real flooded deep cycle is real flooded deep cycle so lets look at the more hotly contested pair.... AGM vs. True Flooded Deep Cycle.... Yes it is true that a real flooded deep cycle will narrowly win out on efficiency over a AGM assuming proper electrolyte levels in the flooded deep cycle. It is true that a flooded deep cycle can be discharged slightly more than an AGM before they are damaged. Life spans will also be very similar assuming both are properly maintained which includes remembering to check and fill electrolyte on the flooded deep cycle side. AGM batteries however win out on being sealed which means no electrolyte to fill or spill. AGM batteries also win out on cranking amps. I have two group 31 interstate AGM, one for start and one for house. I am able to swap them around each season and either one will get me home or keep the party running. AGM batteries also charge a bit quicker given the same amount of watts as they absorb the electrons faster. For those wanting to dive deeper some of the best comparisons on AGM vs. true flooded deep cycle have been done by solar companies and solar studies.

I am sure your boat sounds amazing and 2 days of cove playing is down right awesome. I look forward to reading and seeing what you post next.

 

[FloJet]

@Firehouse, Yes 470 total for the house bank. Also 6v will weigh more I believe than 12v but please don't quote me. 6v is slightly taller tho. But for the 24' lines, battery space is not an issue as I've figured you can probably get 6 total in there plus the 12v for the system battery. Just got to get creative with the positioning of them.

 

[FloJet]

@Mainah, I def agree with you on most of all you said. You are one of the few I would never try to argue against after all the posts I've seen you have provided your expertise and knowledge in many areas. So please don't get me wrong in anything I say as I have great respect for your knowledge and help on this forum. Sometimes I jump the gun a little when I get excited lol. Please forgive me.

I would never disrespect any Texans too as my house bleeds Stars and blues as the best team in the NFL right now COWBOYS ALL THE WAY

I know I haven't seen it all and will never see it all. But I went to lake Lewisville this summer and experience some very nice systems. Systems where I could only dream of spending that kind of money on. But most of those systems alot of time have many flaws was all I was trying to elude to lol. The issues I've seen with alot of systems are very low play time and majority of time way too much emphasis on bass. I love bass but sometimes there is way too much of it. We like to beach and play volley ball where we boat at so we need our music to project out like no other. Over labor day weekend I went to Lake Eufaula and met a friend there who has 10 exiles tower speakers and he couldn't bare to stand underneath mine. Off course individual setups have something to do with it. My main focus is pound for pound power. If members on here can spend a fraction of the cost and compete with some of the best boats out there pound for pound in sound, I feel everyone would be satisfy and I am trying to pass on what I have learned and been taught. I'm not really too familair with how much space the 21' lines have but the 24' you have plenty of options for design I believe. If I wanted to I could get 4-6 12inch subs in there and still have few spaces to store things but why do all that lol. I've seen sub boxes in the lower head. Not me, I like my storage space. Both of my subs are underneath the starboard seats and still have room there even tho both have boxes. But I think I am about to switch to WS xxxv2 and that is one big Sub.

With the 6v vs 12v I totally agree with you when it comes to raw numbers. Most of what I have or seen is done in real time vs looking at the raw numbers. I was such a disbeliever when it came to 6v batteries until I seen them in action in real time vs 12v of the same supposedly rated numbers. My last boat I ran 12v and thought I was really doing something until proven wrong. Two 12v batteries rate lets say 105 amp hours will not give you more play time than two 6v batteries with 105 amp hours wired in series. Now mathematically I def think you are right but I can't tell you why as I am not a battery expert but the 6v outforms the 12v in this application plus some. Another thing like you mentioned it's more true deep cycle so you can drain in lesser than you could with a marine graded deep cycle. That's a big plus for all of us that try to blast our radios all day. I usually start the day at 12.6v on my house bank and if I leave with 12.3 v left showing, that was an all day full blast beach party. I really can't explain it. Yes I'm sure me running everything at 4 ohms have something to do with that but nothing different I didn't do on my last setup. Just more equipment this go around.

The ohms thing can really get confusing too I believe. I think we both are on the same track with that. The only issue I have with using 2 ohm when you don't have to. Example. I run 4 ohm amp that is stable at 1200 watts to run my subs. No matter what 1200 watts is 1200 watts no matter what's providing it. 2 ohm and even 0 ohm gives it least resistance so more power consumption is being used so less play time. My issue with that is if I can get 1200 watts with 4 ohms stable why would an individual not go that route on a boat to get more play time. Same power less power draw. Less power consumption as less generated heat like you said.

As much as I love Wet Sounds products and will never use anything else except amps. For that reason of WS amps not being rated for what my application needs. They are rated at 14.4 v when I don't know many boats that can get their charging or batteries to put out such. I think we can really get deep on this topic later on as so many may disagree but for me I need the same higher watts but more stable at 4ohms with less Voltage requirements. We will get to brands later but I really need to go to bed lol but we all know which one wins hands down for AMPS. Speakers and subs for boats, WS all the way. Amps not so.

Please don't expect much info from me that you probably don't already know @Mainah. More like I need to get more info from you especially on things like connext & SPU lol. I just want to help other members get their systems right without breaking the bank and being fooled by these crooked shops out there that hire JOE blows to work on our babies.

Oh ya the only reason my Rev410 competes with many out there is I spent 80 hours in setting and tuning the system with an SMD tuner and super charged my WS 420. Later we can talk more on how to do that. I'm pushing 750 watts to each one of them and they don't break a sweat. I will never recommend this to anyone here reading this unless you know what you are doing, so this is my disclaimer that I take no responsibility for anyone trying this without consulting with their installer of choice. One thing I don't think many 2015 to current Yamaha owners know that I kinda figured out this summer is the connect system is unbelievable for sound system even with all the negatives I have seen on the connext system on here. With SMD tuner and Power Amp app on my phone via bluetooth, the connext can be turned up to 100% full volume without clipping on highs and 98% full volume without clipping on lows. That's impressive and crucial in building a competing system. Just a thought on that it. Makes me appreciate the connext that much more. Thanks for chiming in and I hope more get on this debate as I know all Yammi owners love sound and ruckus

Sorry for the bad grammar. I'm a math guy.

 

[Firehouse100]

Is that 470amp hour actually 470 reserve minutes at say a 20 amp draw?

 

[FloJet]

I guess the only thing I can say about the 6v is more of us use it out here as it's more cost effective than using same amount of 12v batteries. You would think 2 12v that equals 210 amp hours should have more play time than 2 6v at 105 amp hours in series and I can't comprehend it but I've seen the 6v win every time. Lol

 

[FloJet]

Pretty much what you said. Because of that and what happens in the real world, I have moved away from using the amp hour rule. No system draws the exact same constant power as that fluctuates with music and all so really hard to say. I just try to say ok if a 12v says 105 amp hour, I know now that 2 6v in series at that same rating will outperform its counterpart. Now there are pros and cons. Pros, more play time IMO and less cost. But more weight and space being utilized by the 6v but in the 24' Yamaha's, that shouldn't be a problem.

 

[FloJet]

Best sound system in our state IMO is utilizing 12 6v batteries to run 6 WS xxxv2 subs and 8 WS Rev10s. Tuned with SMD and outfitted with other equipment, he has unbelievable amount of play time for all that equipment.

 

[Firehouse100]

One of my friends is an interstate distributor so for me I'm at cost, but I think after reading all this I'm going to see what he has to say. I may be going 6 volt. Btw I run 4 29's at an rc of 210 min each at 20 amp draw.

 

[FloJet]

Well if those 4 29s are getting it done I would say why change? haha. But I think it's all about what you want to spend really. For you getting them at cost, I think you would be much more happier with 4 6v if you have room for them and want to spend the money for the switch. That would give you 470 vs 210. So right there well over double the minutes for the raw numbers but I don't even want to go there. lol I spent $480 for all 4 of my but I didn't have any core to exchange so next time it should be cheaper. Either way it cost lot cheaper than getting 4 12v batteries that I would use which is nothing less than group 29.

I truly was amazed of what I learned about 6v after when I started to research it and asking all the battery experts in our area about them. They all stated for me to go the 6v route for what I was trying to accomplish. Off course this don't work for everyone, so please ask questions and research a little rather than taking my word for anything. There is more than one way to skin a cat!

 

[Firehouse100]

This is where I might be a little confused. I would have 4x210=840 in reserve capacity and just trying to convert the 470 amp hours into the the reserve capacity minutes?

 

[Mainah]

@FloJet - Thanks for clarifying. I find this very interesting. The chemistry of a 12v AGM and a 6v flooded deep cycle is the same. The difference comes into construction. The AGM takes a hit with mat taking up space but being inert in and of itself. That aside I wonder if there is something to this with regards to cell size or even the internal efficiency of combining 3 cells instead of six. You have my interest peaked. Now to find some published papers on the topic so I can try and expand my knowledge.

 

[Firehouse100]

Sounds good. Maybe the amount of lead in a 6 volt?