Having Issue With Add Battery Kit

[djtech2k]

try swapping battery positions, see if that makes a difference. If your starting battery is dead, having the switch in emergency makes sense.

That’s what I was thinking. I don’t think it’s dead but not full strength. It would a pain to switch but maybe I have no choice.

 

[djtech2k]

One other thing on this whole wiring stuff.

I have that set of cables with in-line fuse that controls the help buttons. My radio must be wired into that because when I disconnect that power, the radio goes off too. Now I know I have read recommendations to leave the bilge pump attached to power at all times, of course that makes sense. On this boat, it seems like the helm buttons, bilge, and radio are all together. I would like to keep as much as possible attached to the bus bar and not on directly connected to the battery but I'd rather not have the bilge not kick on if I need it. When I am on the water, I have never turned off the battery switch, but still.

I know the radio is on the same hot wire as the help buttons. I am sure of that. I am assuming that since the bilge button is included in that, then the bilge won't work either. Does the bilge have any kind of other power to it or is it included with the bilge button (which is included in the helm buttons)?

 

[ctyke]

Mine has a red wire labeled bilge, I connected this to the battery switch, but same lug as red wire from the start battery. This way it has power all teh time and cleans up the battery connections. My batteries only have one ground and two power (one for the battery switch and one for the ACR). Makes changing batteries a lot easier.

 

[djtech2k]

Hmm. I do not thin mine looks like that. I have a pair of wires that go together into the loom. There is a red wire with in-line fuse and a black wire with white stripe, which I assume is negative. I would estimate the wires to be maybe 12-14 gauge. They were and continue to be directly connected to my battery because I know it connect to the help switches and my radio. I would prefer my radio, helm switches, and the bilge to be separate so I can keep the bilge hot all the time and all others to work behind the switch. I know all of my helm switches are powered from this wire. I just want to confirm that this is normal and if there is any kind of other power for the bilge.

 

[tdonoughue]

So your house battery is reading 12.5v (ish) and your start battery is reading 10.5v (ish)?

Here is a handy table... Deep cycle battery voltage & state of charge (there are lots of these around, with similar info). I suspect your start battery is dead as a doornail. That would explain why nothing starts unless you combine the batteries. Basically one battery is doing nothing.

As to the bilge, I do not store on the water, so i have my bilge, radio, amps, chartplotter, lights--everything but the engines wired to a bus bar connected to that on/off/emergency switch. Then, when I come off the water and put the boat away, I turn off the switch (thus killing all power) and plug in the charger. When I am ready to go again, I unplug the charger and turn on the switch. This way, when I am away from the boat, I can be assured everything is off.

If I am 'parking' on the water (e.g. running in for a bite to eat, etc.), then I leave the switch on, but manually turn off the chartplotter, radio, etc. that I may not want running (and leaving on the bilge, of course).

I do know people who store on the water who want the bilge on all the time--whether they are there or not. That makes sense then to wire the bilge separately. Otherwise, keeping the bilge with everything else can work just fine.

 

[djtech2k]

I checked the batteries before I dismantled the twin perko switch setup. The starter batt was like 12v and the house batt was about 14v if I remember right. I will checkout that table.

On the twin perko setup, I think it would start on the 1, 2, or both selected. I could not swear to it, but I thought it did.

I see how you do your setup. I will not be storing mine on the water either, but I guess an overnight stay could be possible on a lake. I thought about putting that power line behind the switch, but was hesitant because of the bilge. I guess it is a narrow case of when my boat might be on the water and the witch be turned off. I just thought it would be wired separately so I would have the choice. As it is now, I do not think it is.

There is one very thin red wire that was hooked directly to the batter that I now have on the bus bar. When I trace it to under the engine hatch, it looks like it goes out in the direction of the swim deck remote, but that's just the direction it goes out from behind the engines. It is very thin and is red. I do not know what it is going to.

As soon as I can, I may try to hookup the house battery to the starter battery cables and see if it tries starts in the on position. That's about all I can think of to try.

BTW, both batteries say they are Interstate 850982 batteries. So I think they are more cranking and not deep cycle, although it says they are Marine batteries.

 

[tdonoughue]

If your house battery was on 14v, it must have been hooked up to a charger. A flooded battery should not be able to hold that much charge. That is a charging voltage. Full for a 12v battery should be like 12.7 or so. And if the house was 2v less than that, that basically puts the battery at zero. Now, that also depends on temperature, etc., so not going to get picky on all of that. Suffice to say, a 2v drop in a battery is basically going from full to zero (again, not holding you to anything here--just saying that is a huge drop for a battery).

Might want to pull both batteries and run them to the auto parts store for a quick load test. Playing with the wiring doesn't make a lot of sense if you have a dead battery in the mix (or might). They will usually test them for free and it is pretty quick. It can save you a lot of frustration of swapping wires (and, if you are like me, accidentally putting the wrong wire somewhere or hitting the wrench against the other pole and sparking up a storm or...).

 

[djtech2k]

When I tested them it was early on and it’s possible that the 2 batteries were connected to the same terminal on the Perko so I don’t hold that in high regard.

Since my last post I do have an update. When I got back yesterday afternoon I hooked them up to the noco charger. This evening I went out to check on it. Of course both batteries were still red. Just to test it, I turned the switch to On and tested the key. Both engines turned over this time. I double checked to make sure it was ON and not emergency, and it was.

So my only guess is that yesterday maybe the starter battery was so low that this system wouldn’t even try to start on the starter battery and that’s why it would only turnover on the combined setting. I do not know this kit well enough to say if that’s the case but it’s the only thing I can think of.

Any thoughts? I had thought about waiting until spring to replace that battery but maybe I need to do it sooner. Since I assume my batteries are more cranking batteries, I was thinking maybe I should get a deep cycle or whatever it is called for the other. Does that make sense? Isn’t it deep cycle for house and cranking for the starter?

 

[tdonoughue]

Lots of schools of thought on batteries. I go for the nice cheap ones at Costco. They are 'starting deep cycle batteries' (whatever that means), so I just got two of those. Inexpensive, but they work just fine for me. Worst I figure is that I replace them more often. AGMs certainly give you more performance, but at 4-6x the cost I normally can't justify that for my use cases. However, there are several who will swear by them, etc. -- and I have no doubt they are better.

All that said, basically, yes, your house battery you generally want a deep cycle and your engines on a starting battery. Unless you are at Costco, in which case they seem to be the same battery...

 

[djtech2k]

Based on the number sticker on the batteries, my boat has 2 of these: Interstate 27DC Marine / RV Battery (costco.com)

They are dated in 2019, so they are barely 1 year old. As you can see from the pics, they both are mounted to the floor with battery trays. I suppose I will move my house battery to the starter battery and then get a deep cycle for house, especially since I plan to upgrade the stereo next spring. I suppose it would be most convenient to get the deep cycle so that it fits in the existing battery tray, if that is possible.

Are there any special move towards or stay away from with this? I know there's different battery types but another things is brand reliability. For example, I have a battery mart very close to me so I often use them for batteries. Online they seem to have a low number of deep cycle batteries, but I just started looking. I see them going over $300+, and of course some are larger in size.

 

[ctyke]

I believe there are 3 manufactures of these types of batteries in the US. I personally buy them from a friend who works for a Semi-Truck dealership that buys and rebrands their own (I get them cheaper than Costco or I'd probably go there). I get a deep cycle and a starter battery, both marine rated. Some people go with fancier types, but I found no need to go that route. If you don't have a costco, how about a farm type store (TSC, Fleet Farm, etc.) after that, I would go to Napa.

 

[djtech2k]

I have battery mart, Costco, farm family fleet, autozone, advance auto, etc around me. Searching for deep cycle batteries is stranger than I expected. For example, battery mart lists agm batteries under marine but I don’t see anything called deep cycle. Autozone and advance do list deep cycle and the sealed batteries, which are all obviously more expensive. I just want something powerful enough to do what I need in the boat so that I don’t have to worry about it. Any experience with sizes/ratings?

 

[ctyke]

You need to figure out what size you have now (Group 27 or 24 or ??)

Here is the AutoZone group 27, deep cycle marine.

https://www.autozone.com/miscellaneous-non-automotive/marine-battery/duralast-27dc-group-27-deep-cycle-marine-battery/315062_0_0

And their group 27 starting battery.

https://www.autozone.com/miscellaneous-non-automotive/marine-battery/duralast-27dp-dl-group-27-starting-marine-battery/107676_0_0

AGM is a different technology that costs more, again some people run those, some don't.

Hopefully this helps.

 

[marcham]

1. Wiring needs to be organized, this is not just an aesthetic requirement, it is a safety requirement in order to avoid any shorts due to cable shielding wearing out due to friction. Cable runs should not be longer than required.

2. Label the ends of the wires at both ends. This is especially important when disconnecting and removing batteries at the end of the season.

3. Can you post a picture of the back of the battery combiner, clearly identifying which wire goes where?

4. Do you have access to a multimeter in order to test voltages and continuity?

The good thing about wiring is that it is usually very simple to fix. I'd much rather fix a wiring problem than an electronic or plumbing problem...

 

[djtech2k]

You need to figure out what size you have now (Group 27 or 24 or ??)

Here is the AutoZone group 27, deep cycle marine.

https://www.autozone.com/miscellaneous-non-automotive/marine-battery/duralast-27dc-group-27-deep-cycle-marine-battery/315062_0_0

And their group 27 starting battery.

https://www.autozone.com/miscellaneous-non-automotive/marine-battery/duralast-27dp-dl-group-27-starting-marine-battery/107676_0_0

AGM is a different technology that costs more, again some people run those, some don't.

Hopefully this helps.

According to the info at costco.com, my battery item number is type 27DC. As long as I can get a couple years out of a battery and it has all the power I need, then I do not really care what it is. I mean of course I want it safe, but other than that power is power to me. Unless I am overlooking something, that is how I plan to buy also.

 

[djtech2k]

1. Wiring needs to be organized, this is not just an aesthetic requirement, it is a safety requirement in order to avoid any shorts due to cable shielding wearing out due to friction. Cable runs should not be longer than required.

2. Label the ends of the wires at both ends. This is especially important when disconnecting and removing batteries at the end of the season.

3. Can you post a picture of the back of the battery combiner, clearly identifying which wire goes where?

4. Do you have access to a multimeter in order to test voltages and continuity?

The good thing about wiring is that it is usually very simple to fix. I'd much rather fix a wiring problem than an electronic or plumbing problem...

I have ordered some cable and the lugs for it so that I can run the wires a little neater and reduce the number of cables directly attached to the batteries.

I plan to label the cables once that is done so I only have to do it once.

I do not have a picture of the back of the switch and to be honest it was a huge pain for me to mount the thing by myself LOL. The bolt heads are getting very stripped so I will only be taking it off if I really need to. I have triple checked the cables attached and they are exactly as I posted above. I can also see that from looking at the front because I can see where the cables originate and come out from the back.

I do have multimeters and I have tested power vs no power to make sure the output from the switch is as expected. I have not measured anything with it since I put this new setup in the boat. I just know that the leads are hot when the switch is ON, like they are supposed to be.

 

[marcham]

Troubleshooting tips.

1. The ACR is not required in order to operate the boat or the battery switch. I would disconnect the leads (and tape them for safety) at the ACR or at the battery in order to perform a fault isolation.

2. WIth the battery switch in the off position, what is the voltage of each battery?

3. With the battery switch in the ON Position, what is the voltage of each battery?

4. With the battery switch in the COMBINE position, what is the voltage of each battery?

5. With the battery switch back in the ON position, does the blower nav lights and the radio operate? What is the voltage at the radio power input leads? Alternatively, is there a 12V outlet through which you can (carefully to avoid a short), measure the voltage?

6. With the battery switch in the ON position and the ignition key in the ON position, does the instrument cluster light-up?

Be aware that unless you've connected the ACR ground lead with a switch or a relay, it will draw a little bit of power when the boat is unattended. Not an issue if it's charged/used every week but if it sits for 5 months with the battery connected and the battery switch in the OFF position, the ACR will still draw power and deplete the batteries.

The start isolation wire is of no consequence as long as you don't have any sensitive electronics connected. For example, if you have a $2000 amp / stereo setup, it would be best to have it wired. If you have the OEM stereo, I'd leave it unconnected.

 

[djtech2k]

I just did a quick test.

With the switch Off or On, the starter batt registers around 12.05-12.1 volts. The house battery is about 12.65-12.7 volts. With the switch set at emergency, both batteries register about 12.55 volts.

I did not test beyond that as it is getting dark. The batteries have been charging since Sunday evening with the exception of yesterday when I was testing it for a few minutes. When I tested yesterday, the engines would start with the switch in the On position. That was after it was charging since Sunday evening.

 

[marcham]

Ok, good start. Do you have a battery charger? If so:

1) Check the electrolyte levels in the battery. The water must be about 1/4 in above the plates. Add distilled water only (never tap water).
2) Charge the battery for 24 hrs (need a 5Amp or more charger)
3) Disconnect the charger, wait 3 waits for the surface charge to dissipate
4) Recheck the starting battery voltage. It should be at 12.65V.

 

[marcham]

I have battery mart, Costco, farm family fleet, autozone, advance auto, etc around me. Searching for deep cycle batteries is stranger than I expected. For example, battery mart lists agm batteries under marine but I don’t see anything called deep cycle. Autozone and advance do list deep cycle and the sealed batteries, which are all obviously more expensive. I just want something powerful enough to do what I need in the boat so that I don’t have to worry about it. Any experience with sizes/ratings?

Batteries are a nightmare to purchase, as the labelling is not standardized.

Normally, if it says "Marine" it means it's a hybrid: it can be used for house loads (long duration/low current ie: radio) or for starting (short / high current).

For flooded batteries: If it says deep cycle, it will have a Amp-Hrs (20 hr rate) rating. This will be around 70-85 Ah for a group 24 battery. However, if it's labelled as deep cycle and it also has a Cold Cranking Amps (CCA) or Marine Cold Cranking Amps (MCCA) rating or a Reserve Capacity (RC), then it is not a deep cycle, it is a hybrid (starting + deep cycle) labelled as a deep cycle.

If it's labelled as a marine/deep cycle and it only has a CCA and RC capacity, then it is not a hybrid or a deep cycle. It's a car starting battery that's been relabelled at a higher price for the marine industry.

AGM batteries are great. They give more cranking amps in a smaller battery compared to flooded cells. They cannot be spilled. They are more resistant to plate damage due to vibration. However, they cost more and are more susceptible to abuse. If the charging voltages specified by the manufacturer are not adhered to, they will last less long then a flooded battery. In most cases, they also should not be combined in a circuit (parallel or series) with a flooded battery. If you have a charger with 2 outputs, then for most sub $500 chargers, both batteries have to be the same type. IMHO, they are not practical or justified in a sub 30 foot boat. I would rather spend the same money on a good flooded battery (which can be abused, over charged, undercharged and then recovered) over a cheap AGM at the same cost.

I personally use hybrids for starting and house load, because I don't use the "house" side of the boat for deep discharges. If I had a large amplifier or an electric trolling motor I use for more than 4 hours a day, then I would use a true deep cycle battery (one without a CCA rating) as they will last much longer when being deeply discharged compared to a hybrid or a starting battery.

If you willing to loose the next month reading, here is a great ressource / primer: Basic to Advanced Battery Information from Battery University