Help with choosing a battery

[212s]

Well yes they all need a bms. Some are built in and some are external. Even though they have a bms that doesnt mean you can just drop it in and go.

From what I've read, the only real issue would be charging voltage is a tad different than what lithium require for a full charge as the boat's regulator will cut current as the lithium is almost topped off - should be fine as a 98% charge won't hurt the lithium battery nor reduce it's life. The BMS will prevent the battery from over-charging or discharging but charge profiles are similar so I don't think the lithium would cut out when the boat charging system thinks it's fully charged. If it did that wouldn't work for any boat or vehicle or RV replacement as it would use the original charging system then cut out while in use. Trolling motor use is different as it's not charged by the boat's system. But if you use a lithium compatible charger like a Noco, your lithium batteries will get a full charge being topped up when not in use. Knowing that, I don't see an issue using these newer BMS batteries for drop-in replacements in our boats.

 

[mrcleanr6]

Not disagreeing. All im saying here is dont assume from the marketing info. Especially on the cheaper batteries. Many are private labeled Chinese junk. Call the mfg, get the specs and double check your system to be sure everything is correct. If you cant get this info from the mfg you need to choose another battery mfg. Battleborn has good tech support and will give you all the info you need. I have seen more than one instance of alternators nearly catching on fire because they are not set to shut down at the right voltage. They overheat and start smoking. Do research on battery brands before buying. There are many out there that are really bad and for your investment in a lithium battery you want it to be a good one that will last you years. There are alot of you tube videos out there where they tear apart the different brands to look inside. Some have a bms that is nothing more than a $5 circuit board and connections that arent even close to being rated for the current output of the battery. Others will have a bms that is quite substantial. Do your homework, double check your specs are correct and you should be ok.

 

[marcham]

Lithium is improving and changing quickly, but as with any new tech, you have to pay to play. I'm of the opinion that unless you have a very high constant current (ie 2000W inverter running an induction stove or microwave) and have a need for rapid charging or are limited by weight and battery placement, Lithium still doesn't make sense in most use cases.

Most Lithium Batteries can't be paralleled with lead batteries and would require a dc to dc charger in order to top them off while under way. Given the relatively low output of our stators (no way of installing high output alternator), charging under way will be negligeable and could compromise the charging of the starting battery.

You may have 2000W of stereo equipment onboard, but it may still only draw 200 to 400W on average, over a couple hrs.

Is it worthwhile to spend $1200 on batteries instead of $300? Maybe, depends on your pocketbook.

I'd probably keep the Lithium bank completely independent of the ship's and engine systems. A 200Ah Renogy battery combined with a 120V AC 40A charger would avoid the complexities of a connected system.


Even complex Lithium systems installed in cruising boats usually will have a lead acid battery in the system in case the BMS disconnects all Lithium loads.

 

[mrcleanr6]

Completely agree. On smaller boats like ours, keep the lithium out of the system unless your changing your start battery to lithium as well. if you can separate and charge with a dedicated charger otherwise the system will get really complex. In my new boat the genset and engine cranking batteries are still agm. The lithium is an 1800ah house bank only. Its not just the battery system that is crazy, its the whole system in general from isolators, inverters, chargers, high output alternators with external regulators. Some of that is due to also having agms in the system. I just about flipped when they gave me a price of 80k. This is why i dug into drop ins and found out why it really is so expensive to do lithium right.

another thing to note, many insurance companies are now asking if you have lithium in the boat. They will drop you, not cover you or not offer insurance to you with lithium on board. Something to look into on your policy. We all know the new lithium iron phosphate are as safe as lead acid but insurance companies dont care. They see lithium and will totally not offer insurance to you. The only time this doesnt apply is when you have a lithium system that is UL listed. The only lithium batteries, to my knowledge, to be UL listed are lithionics. Hence the mega high price tag

i am all for lithium. I think its great. There are just some things to look into before you swap out your good old agm’s. What you find out about the batteries and your charging system will dictate to you if its worth it or not

 

[FSH 210 Sport]

Well yes they all need a bms. Some are built in and some are external. Even though they have a bms that doesnt mean you can just drop it in and go. If the charging system for the batteries is not set to the correct levels then what the bms does is just disconnect the battery to keep it from being damaged. So you will be using your battery for power then everything will just shut off until the bms resets everything. While some of the middle road battery companies like relion and battleborn have done a decent job at making them as close to drop in as possible, you still need to program your charging system to meet the mfg specs. I have been researching this stuff to no end the past few mos while working with the electrical engineer for the company building my new boat. They strictly use lithionics which is hands down the best battery systems out there. With a matching price tag of course. I really want to go lithium in the boat but at $80k for the system it has forced me to look at all the details of maybe just doing a drop in replacement with something like relion or battleborn once i take delivery of the boat. After talking with their tech support i have found out its just not quite that simple and their marketing doesnt always match what their engineers say.

Totally agree with you about on board charger settings, NOCO, Minnkota etc.

It is my understanding that our charging systems run at full output all the time since the magnetic field (flux density) on the rotor is fixed. All of the regulation is done in the regulator / rectifier module where the AC from the alternator is rectified to DC, then the DC voltage is regulated by shunting the excess voltage directly to ground. Automotive style alternators as mentioned previously regulate output by changing the flux density of the magnetic field, the regulator controller / rectifier is designed for lead acid batteries with charging Rates that peak relatively quickly then begin a decline in amperage input as opposed to the older LiFe batteries that maintain a very high charge rate for most of their charge, which exceeds the duty cycle of the alternator. The newer LiFe / LiFePO4 batteries with their BMS systems have, as also mentioned in this thread, have eliminated or reduced the issues with automotive style alternators.

Question: Given the above, do you think our boats charging system is compatible with LiFePO4 batteries?

Question: What is your opinion of Dakota Lithium batteries?

Thanks very much for mentioning that some insurance companies will not insure a boat with lithium batteries. The insurance industry can be a slow to respond to things but once they do they will hit things with a broad brush. I’m researching lithium replacement for my trolling motor bank, and possibly changing the start / house batteries to lithium as well.

Thanks for sharing your research about these batteries!

 

[mrcleanr6]

Totally agree with you about on board charger settings, NOCO, Minnkota etc.

It is my understanding that our charging systems run at full output all the time since the magnetic field (flux density) on the rotor is fixed. All of the regulation is done in the regulator / rectifier module where the AC from the alternator is rectified to DC, then the DC voltage is regulated by shunting the excess voltage directly to ground. Automotive style alternators as mentioned previously regulate output by changing the flux density of the magnetic field, the regulator controller / rectifier is designed for lead acid batteries with charging Rates that peak relatively quickly then begin a decline in amperage input as opposed to the older LiFe batteries that maintain a very high charge rate for most of their charge, which exceeds the duty cycle of the alternator. The newer LiFe / LiFePO4 batteries with their BMS systems have, as also mentioned in this thread, have eliminated or reduced the issues with automotive style alternators.

Question: Given the above, do you think our boats charging system is compatible with LiFePO4 batteries?

Question: What is your opinion of Dakota Lithium batteries?

Thanks very much for mentioning that some insurance companies will not insure a boat with lithium batteries. The insurance industry can be a slow to respond to things but once they do they will hit things with a broad brush. I’m researching lithium replacement for my trolling motor bank, and possibly changing the start / house batteries to lithium as well.

Thanks for sharing your research about these batteries!

i realize we dont have automotive style alternators which is kinda why i was posting all this and telling people to look into it further before just dropping something in. i really dont know the specifics of yamaha's charging system on their motors. it very well could be perfectly lithium compatible with no ill effects but it may not be as well. i just dont know.

as for dakota, i see them advertised alot but dont know much about them. in the boating world it seems there are 3 big brands. for the larger, expensive, professionally installed systems you will see lithionics and victron. for most of the do it yourselfers who do a more drop in system, they are using battleborn. in my research, the big difference in these mid grade lithiums like the dakota, battleborn, relion, renogy vs the cheap off brand lithiums is in the bms. some of these bms's do next to nothing. they are nothing more than a voltage monitor with a switch and not rated for the output of the battery. they are super cheap junk that will be the first thing to fail. the battleborn has a decent bms. nothing great but for a built in bms its fairly decent and robust. capable of handling a decent amount of power. i would assume with the other mid grade batteries you will find something similar. again, research is your friend here. dont rely on the marketing dept of a company for your info. now compare the bms on the mid grade units to the external bms on say lithionics which i think cost somewhere around $2500 for the bms alone. its built like a piece of industrial equipment. alot of the cost of a battery is in the bms and if that is what is keeping your investment from going up in smoke then you want something good. if lithium is something your serious about and plan on investing some cash in it then narrow down your search to a few different companies and call each one. see if they can easily answer your tech questions. i think you will find some of them dont even make batteries. they are getting them from china and putting their label on them.

 

[FSH 210 Sport]

Lithium is improving and changing quickly, but as with any new tech, you have to pay to play. I'm of the opinion that unless you have a very high constant current (ie 2000W inverter running an induction stove or microwave) and have a need for rapid charging or are limited by weight and battery placement, Lithium still doesn't make sense in most use cases.

Most Lithium Batteries can't be paralleled with lead batteries and would require a dc to dc charger in order to top them off while under way. Given the relatively low output of our stators (no way of installing high output alternator), charging under way will be negligeable and could compromise the charging of the starting battery.

You may have 2000W of stereo equipment onboard, but it may still only draw 200 to 400W on average, over a couple hrs.

Is it worthwhile to spend $1200 on batteries instead of $300? Maybe, depends on your pocketbook.

I'd probably keep the Lithium bank completely independent of the ship's and engine systems. A 200Ah Renogy battery combined with a 120V AC 40A charger would avoid the complexities of a connected system.


Even complex Lithium systems installed in cruising boats usually will have a lead acid battery in the system in case the BMS disconnects all Lithium loads.

You make some great points in your post here.

I think you may have overlooked some aspects of lithium batteries that are beyond their 60% weight savings, fast charging and their cost. As mentioned earlier by @mrcleanr6, the energy density is much greater in lithium batteries, I like to use Kilowatt Hours instead of Amp Hours to rate batteries, and for a given size battery, say a 100Ah SLA battery compared to a 100 Ah LiFePO4 battery, the KWh of the LiFePO4 battery has over 200% greater KWh than the lead acid battery of the same size. In my case, that means on a windy day instead of trolling for 6+ hours I could easily troll for 12-14 hours, or on a less windy day, I could troll for two days instead of one, and quite possibly three or more days as described by @Zeusmotorworks and his single 36V battery battery install where he rafted with two other boats and his 36V Ulterra Rip Tide spot locked all three boats all day for a couple of days, and did not need to be recharged until after the third day, that’s some incredible performance.

@Zeusmotorworks has had an issue a couple of times from running the down to where the voltage dropped off to where the motor would not stow. This is an operating characteristic of LiFePO4 batteries, their voltage stays constant right up to fully discharged @80%, unlike SLA batteries that have a constant voltage decline to their 50% discharge.

And speaking of discharge…or levels of discharge, I have no idea how far down I’m pulling my lead acid battery bank for my trolling motor. I’m going to look into the battery gauge that @mrcleanr6 mentioned, the Victron 712 I believe.

And as mentioned previously in this thread, sulfating of the plates in a SLA battery will occur if the battery is left in a state of discharge, such as going on a multi day fishing trip where no AC power is available to plug the onboard charger into for charging each night.

Another benefit is there is no corrosive acid and or corrosive and highly flammable gasses emanating from the batteries.

A draw back for me on lithium batteries during the shoulder seasons is that while the Dakota Lithium batteries are advertised as being to be discharged at -20°, they cannot be charged if the battery is below 32° F. So that means as part of the install I’d have put electrically heated battery blankets on the batteries to be ready to plug in when the temps drop in the afternoon and overnight when temps can easily drop into the teens.

I had called MinnKota to ask about using lithium batteries with my ulterra rip tide self deploying trolling motor, the tech said that he had several reports of problems with the deploying aspect locking out due to the current delivery of the LiFePO4 batteries being high all the time and the trolling motor thinking it had encountered an obstruction during deployment and locked out for safety reasons. On this last issue I’m not convinced this is an issue with higher quality batteries, and the fact that owners of ulterra rip tide trollers are not calling in to the MinnKota help line saying how great their troller is working with their new lithium batteries. Just like a lot of posts on this site are not people making threads about how great the systems on their boats are working on a regular basis.

 

[mrcleanr6]

@FSH 210 Sport dont quote me but i believe battleborn batteries have a built in heater in their batteries or it can be added as an option if you order from them. i have seen this option and i believe it was from them. the victron gauge, they have a 700, 702 and 712 i believe depending on the features you want.

just to add something else to this discussion. there is another type of battery that is a great in between and is more drop in safe than lithium. carbon foam batteries. the only one on the market is from firefly. more expensive than agms but not as much as some lithium. they basically have the attributes of agm but they can be drawn down to 20% or less without damage so they also have way more useful energy density than agm/lead acid. they have been around for years in the trucking industry but have recently made a push into marine. something to look into.

 

[FSH 210 Sport]

@FSH 210 Sport dont quote me but i believe battleborn batteries have a built in heater in their batteries or it can be added as an option if you order from them. i have seen this option and i believe it was from them. the victron gauge, they have a 700, 702 and 712 i believe depending on the features you want.

just to add something else to this discussion. there is another type of battery that is a great in between and is more drop in safe than lithium. carbon foam batteries. the only one on the market is from firefly. more expensive than agms but not as much as some lithium. they basically have the attributes of agm but they can be drawn down to 20% or less without damage so they also have way more useful energy density than agm/lead acid. they have been around for years in the trucking industry but have recently made a push into marine. something to look into.

You are absolutely correct about the BB batteries having an internal heater option, something I looked at. It also used to be, and it may still be the case in more extreme cold that LiFe batteries would act dead in temps of 32°, you just need to apply some load to them and once a little internal heat was built up they would be at full potential. Perhaps the addition of phosphate helped with the cold sensitivity of the original design.

So far, the DL batteries are looking good as they cater to set ups like I want, wiring harnesses for series connections of 12V batteries for 24 & 36V trollers. But to your point, while they have answered several of my technical questions they have been evasive about one other, which is do they know of any issues tha MinnKota Ulterra riptide trolling motors are having using their batteries. I explained in the email that I had spoken with MinnKota and they are the ones that told me about the issues and when I asked Dakota lithium about this they told me I needed to go and discuss this with Minnkota. Which is interesting because on their website they talk about being good for Minnkota trolling motors.

With the info you have provided I will be asking them some specifics about their BMS system;
- what is the low voltage cut off set at.
-what is the current interrupting capacity of the internal switch.
-how long will it take for the BMS to restore power once it initiates a shutdown.

When I asked them about charging with my boats system, the tech asked for a pic of the reg / rect and responded that he knew of no issues of charging problems with this system.

The other thing I like about the DL batteries is that they advertise (at least) their materials are “conflict free” and don’t come from places like the Democratic Republic of the Congo (70% of the worlds production of cobalt) where child labor is used (children as young as 4 years of age) in the cobalt mines. I have a huge problem with the exploitation of children.

 

[JasonB]

Following.

Very informative thread, especially about the LiFePO4 batteries and our tiny charging systems.

I was looking into buying lithium battery(ies) for my house loads but now I'm unsure if I should go this route.

I may be sticking with lead and I'm looking into the TPPL batteries. Those might give me the charging (from our boats charging system) rate I'm hoping for out on the water without the worry of the lithium batteries.

Thanks to @FSH 210 Sport , @mrcleanr6, @Canuckjetboater , etc for the beneficial discussion.

PS. Why doesn't the forum have a sticky for this topic? There are so many of us eager for info and it would be most beneficial for there to be one place that we can get the info. MODS?

 

[FSH 210 Sport]

Gotta love it when the OP was just a drive by poster that started a great thread.

 

[Zeusmotorworks]

You make some great points in your post here.

I think you may have overlooked some aspects of lithium batteries that are beyond their 60% weight savings, fast charging and their cost. As mentioned earlier by @mrcleanr6, the energy density is much greater in lithium batteries, I like to use Kilowatt Hours instead of Amp Hours to rate batteries, and for a given size battery, say a 100Ah SLA battery compared to a 100 Ah LiFePO4 battery, the KWh of the LiFePO4 battery has over 200% greater KWh than the lead acid battery of the same size. In my case, that means on a windy day instead of trolling for 6+ hours I could easily troll for 12-14 hours, or on a less windy day, I could troll for two days instead of one, and quite possibly three or more days as described by @Zeusmotorworks and his single 36V battery battery install where he rafted with two other boats and his 36V Ulterra Rip Tide spot locked all three boats all day for a couple of days, and did not need to be recharged until after the third day, that’s some incredible performance.

@Zeusmotorworks has had an issue a couple of times from running the down to where the voltage dropped off to where the motor would not stow. This is an operating characteristic of LiFePO4 batteries, their voltage stays constant right up to fully discharged @80%, unlike SLA batteries that have a constant voltage decline to their 50% discharge.

And speaking of discharge…or levels of discharge, I have no idea how far down I’m pulling my lead acid battery bank for my trolling motor. I’m going to look into the battery gauge that @mrcleanr6 mentioned, the Victron 712 I believe.

And as mentioned previously in this thread, sulfating of the plates in a SLA battery will occur if the battery is left in a state of discharge, such as going on a multi day fishing trip where no AC power is available to plug the onboard charger into for charging each night.

Another benefit is there is no corrosive acid and or corrosive and highly flammable gasses emanating from the batteries.

A draw back for me on lithium batteries during the shoulder seasons is that while the Dakota Lithium batteries are advertised as being to be discharged at -20°, they cannot be charged if the battery is below 32° F. So that means as part of the install I’d have put electrically heated battery blankets on the batteries to be ready to plug in when the temps drop in the afternoon and overnight when temps can easily drop into the teens.

I had called MinnKota to ask about using lithium batteries with my ulterra rip tide self deploying trolling motor, the tech said that he had several reports of problems with the deploying aspect locking out due to the current delivery of the LiFePO4 batteries being high all the time and the trolling motor thinking it had encountered an obstruction during deployment and locked out for safety reasons. On this last issue I’m not convinced this is an issue with higher quality batteries, and the fact that owners of ulterra rip tide trollers are not calling in to the MinnKota help line saying how great their troller is working with their new lithium batteries. Just like a lot of posts on this site are not people making threads about how great the systems on their boats are working on a regular basis.

Real quick I have nothing to add that has not already been said. Thanks @FSH 210 Sport

To clarify, either I was misquoted, or misspoke, but my setup would hold the three boats for a days chilling and I'd be able to fish two more days before a recharge. Those fishing days were really 4-5 hours each at best. The system rocks, but I'm sure not enough to hold those three boats for three days. If the wind was not too bad, bet it would hold for 2 days, but its a pain in the ass to manually stow the motor when the waters choppy.

 

[FSH 210 Sport]

Real quick I have nothing to add that has not already been said. Thanks @FSH 210 Sport

To clarify, either I was misquoted, or misspoke, but my setup would hold the three boats for a days chilling and I'd be able to fish two more days before a recharge. Those fishing days were really 4-5 hours each at best. The system rocks, but I'm sure not enough to hold those three boats for three days. If the wind was not too bad, bet it would hold for 2 days, but its a pain in the ass to manually stow the motor when the waters choppy.

My apologies if I misquoted you on the incredible performance of your set up!

 

[DRock3d]

X2Power BCI Group 24M 12V 76AH 840CCA AGM Deep Cycle Marine & RV Battery - SLI24AGMDPM

12 volt Group 24 AGM deep cycle battery with 76 AH capacity for marine, boat and RV use. Dual Purpose technology offers both incredible starting power and deep capacity

www.batteriesplus.com

Would this make a good house battery? I'd like to run my stereo at a good volume for at least a few hours without having to start.

Amp:

PA D4000.4 Super Efficient Class D Bridgeable 4-Channel Mobile Audio Amplifier For Cars | Polk Audio

www.polkaudio.com

Tower Speakers:

MM692 6" x 9" 3 Way Speakers | Car & Marine | Polk Audio™

The MM692 6" x 9" 3-way speakers are marine certified and made from non-resonant Dynamic Balance materials for crystal clear highs, mids and lows.

www.polkaudio.com

 

[HangOutdoors]

I went with a Northstar AGM TPPL, fantastic battery for the house. Read up on TPPL, all AGMs are not created equal.

 

[DRock3d]

attery for the house. Read up on TPPL, all AGMs are not created equal.

Allegedly this is a rebadged Northstar that I can actually get locally. It does have the same casing from what I can tell. Same specs as this one in fact:

Ultra High Performance Group 24 Thin Plate Pure Lead AGM Battery | West Marine

Check out our Ultra High Performance Group 24 Thin Plate Pure Lead AGM Battery and more from West Marine!

www.westmarine.com

 

[Zeusmotorworks]

No worries @FSH 210 Sport. Knowing me, I may have stated it that way... did you have a thread on your Solix 10 Gen 2 SI/DI install? I'm looking for the largest screen I can afford and put in the console that doesn't break the bank.

As to the thread, I can't speak for you boys up north, but down here in Texas, I just can't find enough negatives to dissuade me from running lithium for the trolling motor. Its just that damn good by leaps and bounds. Like adding a Whipple to a 350 good. So damn good converted my 6" lifted golfcart to lithium as well. Same effect. Dropped 350 lbs off the cart and like I put nitrous on it. Now I'm looking at lithium for the boat house battery.

 

[FSH 210 Sport]

No worries @FSH 210 Sport. Knowing me, I may have stated it that way... did you have a thread on your Solix 10 Gen 2 SI/DI install? I'm looking for the largest screen I can afford and put in the console that doesn't break the bank.

As to the thread, I can't speak for you boys up north, but down here in Texas, I just can't find enough negatives to dissuade me from running lithium for the trolling motor. Its just that damn good by leaps and bounds. Like adding a Whipple to a 350 good. So damn good converted my 6" lifted golfcart to lithium as well. Same effect. Dropped 350 lbs off the cart and like I put nitrous on it. Now I'm looking at lithium for the boat house battery.

I don’t have a thread on my Solix install as it was installed by the dealer before I picked up the boat. I do like the 10” Solix G2 that I have though. It will easily fit flush mounted in the dash, there might be enough room for the 12”. I have mine on a RAM mount, and really like the ability to move it into the best viewing position for what I’m doing. If I’m driving for a while, I move it over as close as I can get it to centerline and angle the screen so I have a direct view with no parallax. If I have a co pilot I set the screen to where they have a direct view. Fishing off of the swim deck? I stand it up tall and make viewing optimum from the swim deck. Fishing from the bow? I stand it up tall and spin it around 180°. I got the 10” so just in case I wanted to in the future I could flush Mount it. If I had it to do over I’d get the biggest screen I could and RAM Mount it. If your eyes are decent the 10” will be fine though. Another member here is adding a second transducer on the port side to make SI work as well on the port side as the starboard side…something to consider.

When I was talking to Relion yesterday I asked about just dropping one of their 60Ah group 24 batteries into the house battery position and keeping the lead acid starter. The engineer told me no problem with that, just be sure your charger is set to AGM.

 

[Zeusmotorworks]

Thx, as not to clutter up the thread, can you message me some pics if you have any?