Reliability of new voting machines questioned-Associated Press

[Enduro900]

No I know....but just following the "theory" of vote-flipping and that it happened on the machines (which trump won anyway) and not on the mail in (which biden won).

Please take your “theory” speak to other topics.......there is no “theory” Here.....the “theory” was the computer scientist that warned in the AP story that vote flipping could happen and how.....In the past PA election it DID happen......In the small county in michigan this election it DID happen....and was found after many steps to uncover what really occurred.

If you want to take this offline I would be glad to. Maybe you read other sources that added some spin to downplay this. I ride that area often in the winter, And I got first-hand knowledge of all the steps they had to take to figure out what happened.....they could have just accepted the results without any question and none of this would have come to light. You cant catch this in recounts........

Your only argument is back to a “glitch” and not intentional.....I really couldnt care less.....if it could be “unintentional” in flipping thousands of votes then it is not reliable and then don’t use them anymore......or it could next time be “intentional” too right? Or is this too impossible of a “theory” for you???

 

[FLJetBoater]

In the small county in michigan this election it DID happen....and was found after many steps to uncover what really occurred.

Maybe you read other sources that added some spin to downplay this.

Your only argument is back to a “glitch” and not intentional.....I really couldnt care less.....if it could be “unintentional” in flipping thousands of votes then it is not reliable and then don’t use them anymore......or it could next time be “intentional” too right? Or is this too impossible of a “theory” for you???

First off, it's not my argument. It's from the exact same site/source that you posted your article from, only mine was from 2 days later when they found out what happened.
Why these Michigan election conspiracy theories don't add up

In regards to PA, "First, a ballot programming error prevented votes cast for one of three candidates in a judge’s race from registering in the bar codes used to count the vote." "The other problem: miscalibrated touchscreens on about a third of the county’s 320 machines."

Maybe instead of just not using them, we train people to use them properly and double check that they are updated/configured as they should be.

I'm not saying that it can't or won't happen, but the articles you posted don't prove any sort of fraud or "flipping", which makes it a theory.

 

[Enduro900]

Lets talk about boats here......plenty of other placed to argue over politics if that is your thing

Forums——Off Topic Discussions (Not Boat Related)——General Off Topic

This thread is three steps from a boating topic and is allowable under the rules of this site.......you seemed to venture far off your target, so if this isn’t for you, please let those that think it is important to continue discussion. If no one else cares about this subject, it will just die off just like any other discussion.

This is not a political party discussion, this is a discussion about electronic voting machines and their confirmed shortcomings all citizens that take their voting seriously may want to know about and discuss.

I will appreciate if the admins would warn or remove anyone bringing party politics into this. I have made it known over and over this thread is not, and should not be about party politics...

 

[Enduro900]

First off, it's not my argument. It's from the exact same site/source that you posted your article from, only mine was from 2 days later when they found out what happened.
Why these Michigan election conspiracy theories don't add up

In regards to PA, "First, a ballot programming error prevented votes cast for one of three candidates in a judge’s race from registering in the bar codes used to count the vote." "The other problem: miscalibrated touchscreens on about a third of the county’s 320 machines."

Maybe instead of just not using them, we train people to use them properly and double check that they are updated/configured as they should be.

I'm not saying that it can't or won't happen, but the articles you posted don't prove any sort of fraud or "flipping", which makes it a theory.

Read about “flipping” in Michigan.....theories are what could happen......I just told you it did.....20 articles out there tell you it did.....YES it flipped votes!

I told you how they found it.

I told you how it would NOT have been found if they had just accepted the results (I dont need a reporter, I have first hand knowledge from the people involved). If you want to just blow it off because “an article stated they found it and corrected it” fine, go ahead.......why didn’t they tell you how they found it, and how they correct it??? It is pretty clear you couldnt care less.....but pretty important details that you don’t know, wouldnt you agree???

Did any of the articles you read state “if they would not have found it, it would have easily been found and corrected in later steps”??? No, none did because there is a blatant “flaw” in the system that makes a flip hard to find......

You can think they are safe and lead to an accurate election. I can disagree, and voice MY concern that this is not an acceptable way to hold future elections.

Whether you are a D, R or I, we have now had TWO elections in a row that had over 120-150 million votes and both were settled by less than 100,000 votes in 4 or 5 states.....

Yes I am concerned......a close race in both 2016 or 2020, I want to make sure that whomever my fellow Americans decided to lead, is in fact decided by us, not a possible hacker here....or foreign country....

No party politics here, just a concerned fellow American that expects more from our governments (federal, state and local).

 

[Beachbummer]

I have some perspective on this topic, I come from what was one of Latin America's longest democracies turned into a Criminal Enterprise.

I share your concern for anything that is not auditable by plain sight. This is a gap I have seen ever since I started voting in Texas...spin the wheel, click Vote, little flags come up...Good job, you are done, Thanks for coming...

WHAT?

There is no paper record of my vote anywhere, not great.

BUT...

I have not yet heard ANY candidate or party raise this as an issue of concern. (current election excepted) It has worked for the last 20 years, so if the candidates feel represented and secure in the process BEFORE the votes are counted, and so far except for this time, also after, who am I to whine about it?

These additional auditability options (such as paper copy output at voting and kept with the machine to confirm results) bring greater challenges later when the audit trail doesn't match. (What if I eat my paper output printed from the machine, then they are one short when they try to validate. What votes are tossed? just mine? everyone's in the box? which is the real ballot and which is the "audit report" if there is a discrepancy?)

If the big parties participating feel comfortable with the process as created I have no objections, BUT the best time to future proof the system is when you trust it. Once it's taken over by an evil actor you can't get your safeguards in place, so I have conflicting feelings on the topic.

So far, in my humble perspective, I have seen ZERO real convincing proof that there has been any fraud (as in, attempt to change results by manual intervention, with the intent to change the results) We have seen some problems that were detected and corrected by the controls that are designed into the process. I'm not saying there wasn't any, just that I have not seen any proof that there was.

 

[mike220022]

Also not a political statement since Im not referring to a specific candidate.

The mail in voting system this election has been the biggest part of fraudulent votes. Ballots found in ditches, ballot drop boxes set on fire, ballots being delivered after election day. Im sure we all have different opinions on this but common sense should tell you if the United States Post Office says to not mail cash because it isnt safe then how do we justify mailing a pc of paper, leaving no way of verifying who sends it, and then expect it to actually show up when it comes to electing the leader of the free world?

 

[swatski]

This is not a bash or political message......

Oh please... take this bullshit somewhere else?

To me, you sound like an instigator.

--

 

[haknslash]

Regardless of party affiliation (I’ve never been nor will I ever be registered to a single party) this election has some very questionable things that have transpired and we as Americans should not need to worry our votes are counting (or not). If an investigation needs to be opened up to ensure our LEGAL votes are counted then nobody should have a dispute with that to get the process and votes. Anyone that has an issue with this just wants to accept what the media has manufacturered. We all owe it to ourselves for the sake of our Constitutional Rights to get voting right. like I said I don’t care who the winner is so long as it’s been done on the up and up.

 

[FLJetBoater]

Also not a political statement since Im not referring to a specific candidate.

The mail in voting system this election has been the biggest part of fraudulent votes. Ballots found in ditches, ballot drop boxes set on fire, ballots being delivered after election day. Im sure we all have different opinions on this but common sense should tell you if the United States Post Office says to not mail cash because it isnt safe then how do we justify mailing a pc of paper, leaving no way of verifying who sends it, and then expect it to actually show up when it comes to electing the leader of the free world?

In many states ballots ARE allowed to be delivered after election day as long as they were postmarked BEFORE election day.

Have you seen a mail-in ballot? Outer envelope, SECURE inside envelope with seal, then the ballot is inside that. Mail employees aren't opening these, changing them, and re-sealing them it's just not possible. The signature on the ballot is authenticated against records. If the signature doesn't match the ballot either doesn't count, or the county will contact the voter to correct it (legal in only some states.)

 

[mike220022]

Regardless of party affiliation (I’ve never been nor will I ever be registered to a single party) this election has some very questionable things that have transpired and we as Americans should not need to worry our votes are counting (or not). If an investigation needs to be opened up to ensure our LEGAL votes are counted than nobody should have a dispute with that to get the process and votes. Anyone that has an issue with this just wants to accept what the media has manufacturered. We all owe it to ourselves for the sake of our constitutional rights to get voting right. like I said I don’t care who the winner is so long as it’s been done on the up and up.

Well I will say I do care who wins, I care greatly actually. With that said, I think it does need to be investigated because just as you said some questionable things have definitely happened. We need to get the truth, although that seems impossible these days, to validate the accuracy of our elections. If there is fraud from EITHER PARTY...it needs to be prosecuted and an example needs to be made because Americans deserve a fair election. It is our voice and it needs to be heard in order to preserve our democracy.

 

[Beachbummer]

Again, Proof is what might stand behind these fraud accusations. So far every video I have received from a "friend" has been quickly researched and debunked.

 

[mike220022]

If I was a future teller Id say this thread is about 1 "moderator" away from being locked. Once they see a comment that favors the party they dont like its over.

 

[Beachbummer]

And, I speak as witness in actual fraudulent elections where there was a clear winner based on totaling automated reports generated at the ballot machines, collected by pol witnesses, and the vote counts were ALTERED after the fact blatantly and non-auditably. The government just pretended the numbers were different and stole the election blatantly. This happened in Bolivar State in Venezuela where the office of the governor was blatantly stolen from candidate Andres Velasquez. They did not even try to hide it to show their power. I know what fraud looks like.

Oh yeah, the chief of the entity in charge of counting later acknowledged the Fraud.

If you read Spanish this is an interesting banana republic read:

Rector del CNE confesó que hubo fraude en elección de Andrés Velásquez

Esta admisión de Juan Carlos Delpino confirma el fraude cantado desde 2017 por parte del dirigente político Andrés Velásquez

www.todosahora.com

 

[haknslash]

Well I will say I do care who wins, I care greatly actually. With that said, I think it does need to be investigated because just as you said some questionable things have definitely happened. We need to get the truth, although that seems impossible these days, to validate the accuracy of our elections. If there is fraud from EITHER PARTY...it needs to be prosecuted and an example needs to be made because Americans deserve a fair election. It is our voice and it needs to be heard in order to preserve our democracy.

I meant of course that I care who gets in but I mainly meant I care more about the process is legit and legal votes are counted accurately, regardless of which party wins. Nobody should have an issue with ensuring this election (or any election) is legit and if that means an investigation then so be it. We did it in 2000 amd we can do it in 2020.

in the end people need to understand the media has no say so in who wins an election. The vote (the people) do. If there is fraud or questionable handling then there should be an investigation plain and simple. People just need to be patient and wait to see what comes out of the courts is all.

 

[mike220022]

In many states ballots ARE allowed to be delivered after election day as long as they were postmarked BEFORE election day.

Have you seen a mail-in ballot? Outer envelope, SECURE inside envelope with seal, then the ballot is inside that. Mail employees aren't opening these, changing them, and re-sealing them it's just not possible. The signature on the ballot is authenticated against records. If the signature doesn't match the ballot either doesn't count, or the county will contact the voter to correct it (legal in only some states.)

I have not seen a mail-in ballot. I go to work every day, go to the grocery store, go out to eat, and everything else and see people all over the place doing the same thing so I also drove to my polling location and did my duty and voted in person. I also showed my ID just as everyone should be required to do. If you have to show ID to buy a vehicle or a house or hell, even a case of beer....you should be required to show ID in electing someone to the highest position in the country.

 

[mike220022]

I meant of course that I care who gets in but I mainly meant I care more about the process is legit and legal votes are counted accurately, regardless of which party wins. Nobody should have an issue with ensuring this election (or any election) is legit and if that means an investigation then so be it. We did it in 2000 amd we can do it in 2020.

in the end people need to understand the media has no say so in who wins an election. The vote (the people) do. If there is fraud or questionable handling then there should be an investigation plain and simple. People just need to be patient and wait to see what comes out of the courts is all.

Agree with you 100% on that!

 

[Enduro900]

Why don’t you haters stop challenging me on my intentions.

I’ve said over and over again this is not about last weeks election.

Don’t believe me? Great, you dont have to, just don’t comment, go back to talking about which steering fins are better.

This is the off subject forum, I have not accused either party,,,,,maybe we will undercover hacks from 5 different groups.....maybe even China and Russia and Iran and N. Korea have already been involved.....did it ever even occur to you that maybe a foreign power flipped the CONFIRMED THOUSANDS in Michigan to sow distrust and infighting???? No way right??? We’ve been told how many times the Russians and Chinese are attempting to influence our elections....well maybe they just did to sow mistrust and chaos.....anyone remember “united we stand, divided we fall”??

I gave you guys evidence these systems can flip votes, I said NOTHING about flipping the election....

Yet some of you even want to deny these systems flipped thousands of votes.....that is on you, you don’t need to comment if this topic isnt for you....

Here, I will make my point Christal Clear......none of us know why, who, or how many......we know it is possible because it happened....

Stop being defensive, stop denying it happened, stop blaming me for bringing it up, and start asking questions so that people will be moved to investigate other counties and states that used these machines and software.....or simply don’t comment and don’t ruin this discussion for others that may want to have it....and maybe we find nothing.......yeah I want that look under the hood to happen.....

How do you think they order recalls of 1 Million cars, by having reports of 1 million failures?????? No, if it is a serious life threatening issue, it can take a handful of reports to recall hundreds of thousands, or even millions of cars......

This happened it at least 2 separate areas in 2 separate elections that we know of......it needs further attention.......being defensive now doesn’t help it go away, or help it not happen again later down the road.....and again if you disagree you are free to do so, just dont sabotage the discussion because you don’t like what it might uncover, and that it could be we don’t have the control over our country that we recently thought we did.....and maybe nothing but a “glitch: in one machine happened.....yet none of you nor I know that for sure at this point.....so the prudent thing to do is check them all...make sure instead of just speculate.......

 

[Enduro900]

Oh please... take this bullshit somewhere else?

To me, you sound like an instigator.

--

It’s you that just invaded my space.....so you can pack-up your own bullshit and find another thread.....

 

[Julian]

Interesting thread. Thanks for keeping it non-partisan (or close to it).

I've read a number of these articles about vote "flipping" and I think the term itself is causing some of the confusion. None of the articles I read (including the one at the top of this thread) have said someone was committing FRAUD - they were simply concerned with the technology and traceability of the voting process. Vote "Flipping" as these articles have stated is equipment error or human error. No one has said that someone did something on purpose in order to rig an election (and yes - investigations were done).

To compare this with Venezuela (a military dictatorship) is silly. We have one of the most closely guarded election processes in the world (if not THE most). Because of this - we FOUND the errors (not fraud). I AGREE - It is concerning that these errors could occur -so that part I agree with you on! I see no reason why we couldn't have a duplicate process to ensure the system has error checking. Use a kiosk, have it print the names and you validate the print out - that they keep and also count against the electronic tally (the barcode part is where the fault lay - text reading is simple).

But again....we aren't talking about Fraud - we are talking about election technology. We must do better for sure - no reason it shouldn't be 100%.

 

[mike220022]

I 100% agree that some shady things have occurred in this election and also 100% believe it all needs to be investigated. Re-count every state as far as I am concerned not just the ones that strangely flipped red to blue or blue to red. All legal votes should count and illegal ones should be tossed.