Reliability of new voting machines questioned-Associated Press

[haknslash]

At least in my part of Florida you mark your ballot slide into a reader and it counts your vote. And saves that ballot so you can have a way to check votes. Not sure if your ballot can be tracked back to you though. You do show ID and sign for it. I feel confident using the system. Not sure if other states use it.

yes we thankfully also use Voter ID here.

 

[Betik]

“It’s not the people who vote that count. It’s the people who count the votes.” -J.S.

Very true

 

[Rockfords Fosgate]

Appropriate for this thread. University of Michigan professor hacked an election machine...

https://twitter.com/x/status/1155227112099524609

 

[Lee Wilke]

@Enduro900 I do think highly of this forum, that is true.

voting fraud and/or inaccuracies happen in all forms of voting. This whole touchscreen business makes it easier for a mishap. Either intentional or honest mistake as @Mainah mentioned. That does not concern all that much because in the long run ( 10 or 20 years) they are a wash.

What really concerns me is that as country we are closer to civil war than we have been in 150 years and the people who can diffuse it, do nothing more than actually add fuel to the fire. This country ( with all of its flows) is too great to risk for the sake of higher ratings or 4 years in DC.

Please recall or take some time to read on Julius Cesar. The Roman pollical elite rubbed him the wrong way and he crossed the Rubicon. In my opinion the Washington DC establishment is playing a very dangerous game. If 2016 was a surprise or a Russian trick, the 2020 election should have been a wake up call. There are 72 million people ( 16% more than 2016) that voted for Trump and at least 10 million of them are armed to the teeth. Say on January 20 Trump asks them to cross the Potomac and stand guard around the White House. What would the establishment do? Send in the Marines to take over armed American citizens?

I know it sounds crazy, but if you were to sit back and study other countries, you will start noticing the similarities.

Actually there's probably more like 100% are armed that voted for Trump, If he did ask them to stand guard, 10 million probably would. However as a Marine myself, the "establishment" cant send in the Marines or any other armed service to take over. Besides that the vast majority of the armed services tend to lean to one side. I wont say which way but I'm pretty sure you can figure that one out.

I do have an issue with the way "votes are made, received and counted and unfortunately not all states do it the same way. So there in itself lies the first issue plaguing the entire process of a Federal election. Could go on and on for days but don't have the time, still looking for a BOAT to buy LOL.

BTW Love this site with all the knowledge on JB's. Thank you all who contribute to this site.

 

[Enduro900]

Appropriate for this thread. University of Michigan professor hacked an election machine...

https://twitter.com/x/status/1155227112099524609

Nice find Rock!

Here it is also, and just happens to be on the New York Times website......does anyone really still believe none of this is possible??? Here is a University of Michigan Compuer Scientist telling you it is. I gave you (2) viabile sources confirming it has happened in PA in a past election, and thousands of votes flipped in at least (2) counties in Michigan:

Video: Opinion | I Hacked an Election. So Can the Russians.

It’s time America’s leaders got serious about voting security.

www.nytimes.com

Let’s take the whole “party” and “blocking” talk out of this....this is real, people have warned about it, nothing has been done, and it HAS happened in elections.

“But it hasn’t changed an election” Are any of you willing to state that with certainty??? Find me one official that will go under oath, facing jail time to guarantee that:

15,000 votes could not have been flipped in AZ

15,000 votes could not have been flipped in GA

20,000 votes could not have been flipped in WI

Not one person is going to state their life on this....not one. And an “oh by the way” all the found “flipped” votes only flipped one way.

Does this also look like maybe the NYT article now looks suspect, knowing that a video on their own site contradicts their own statement???

 

[Beachbummer]

Could this be done while Poll watchers representing the party are present? and the vote counts and signatures match the data on the voting records? It is my opinion there are too many eyes watching for this to be possible without detection in any of the current systems I have understood (not that I grasp all the systems, but of the 2 or 3 I understand how they work).

The great aspect is that there are several and competing interests in the process, so if any of these things actually happen, specially in states with a paper trail, in my opinion they should be detectable and provable.

 

[Enduro900]

Could this be done while Poll watchers representing the party are present? and the vote counts and signatures match the data on the voting records? It is my opinion there are too many eyes watching for this to be possible without detection in any of the current systems I have understood (not that I grasp all the systems, but of the 2 or 3 I understand how they work).

The great aspect is that there are several and competing interests in the process, so if any of these things actually happen, specially in states with a paper trail, in my opinion they should be detectable and provable.

Did you read the AP article I first posted?

I will post it again if you didnt:

Reliability of new voting machines questioned

Nearly 1 in 5 U.S. voters will cast ballots this year on devices that look and feel like the discredited paperless voting machines they once used, yet

www.dispatch.com

The issue is not what we see.....its what we don’t see. Re-read the article.

Someone should ask why the state of Colorado has banned these machines if there are no concerns.

At the very least there needs to be a forensic investigation by a third party......which so far the states have said no. Why? Its our election, why do we not have the right to know nothing played a role? I want you, me or our neighbors to decide elections, not any other force. Why is it no one is saying “where their is smoke their is fire.” I’m just a guy with questions, and I have found numerous articles that raise more than just a suspicion.....it wasn’t me writing this so why did the authors write about this? Why did the UM Computer Scientist warn Washington DC in a formal hearing, and do his own video??

This is NOT about party...do you think someone of any political party that was in charge wants to find out this happened under their watch??? If anything is found, even if explainable, people’s careers could be done.......There is no other reason for the refusal of a 3rd party deep drive....they are in damage control and don’t really want to know, because there is a chance there is more to it....and then maybe there is not. No one knows, and that is the wrong answer.......

 

[Rockfords Fosgate]

There is a series of sworn affidavits and lawsuits in play, so we may start to get some clarity on this in the very near future. Stay tuned and get your popcorn ready.

 

[Beachbummer]

Like I said, I followed the Venezuelan elections very closely, so I've seen fraud up close. I work in IT where security is thought of a not absolute, but consistent with what you are protecting. If you take a special commando armed unit and kidnap a few key people's family you can get them to operate these machines a certain way, open separate poll centers where they add votes, and show your the results you want, no hacking needed. So the weaknesses are in many places, not just "The machine could be hacked".
(Talking about a human weakness for discussion, NOT ADVOCATING KIDNAPPING! Do not kidnap anybody)

So you protect to the reasonable level. (I did read the article posted, did not find anything surprising. Complaints the machines don't work well when the screen was not calibrated/ This is apparent to the user as the action of the machine is different than your intention when you put your finger on it.)

The fact that AP says some machines can be vulnerable doesn't mean the right measures to counter that have not been taken. Both parties have poll witnesses and observers intimately familiar with the process and had their chance to bring up concerns BEFORE the election.

There is a drop dead date where the states must certify their results with the best they have on hand. That's why Al Gore's desire to count more/better in Florida could not go forward. Once that date arrives, a result must be provided.

You can suspect all you want, but until there is actual Proof (which a judge could act on), it's not going to change anything. and you have until Dec 8 to get ahead of the Safe Harbor deadline.

No system is perfect. Are there enough flaws to throw results away in these states that are close? Even those controlled by opposing legislatures? I think the more likely answer is that folks showed up to vote.

I keep hearing a bunch of dead people voted. That should be super easy to prove. Where are their names and date of death and date voted?

One way ballots are stuffed is to use voter's info in the roles to vote. Find folks marked as voted that did not vote. That would be something. Haven't see that either.

Anyway, I think the more likely explanation is that (Insert desired Political stuff about respect and humility and specially COVID-19) so more people in these states voted as they did, and the votes are not fraudulent.

BUT it doesn't matter what I think, or if and how the machines might be tricked to flip or flap, or if the USPS guy lied or retracted his statements about fraud, it matters what can be actually PROVEN.

 

[Rockfords Fosgate]

I keep hearing a bunch of dead people voted. That should be super easy to prove. Where are their names and date of death and date voted?

Here are some of the names being investigated here in Georgia.

1. Deborah Jean Christiansen
2. Rosemary Hardle
3. James Blalock

 

[Beachbummer]

Track them down! somebody saw them. If it happened, Whoever participated needs to go to JAIL. I looked one up, It appears Deborah Jean Christiansen registered to vote after death. It will be interesting, hopefully this is pursued until resolution.

Tucker reveals 'dead voters' in Nevada but GOP admits no evidence of fraud

TUCKER Carlson has named dead people he says “voted” in Nevada but the state’s GOP chairman admits he has no evidence yet of “widespread” fraud. The outspoken Fox News…

www.the-sun.com

 

[Rockfords Fosgate]

For all we know, they voted for Ronald McDonald. Regardless, anyone convicted of ballot/vote tampering should do 5-10 IMO. There needs to be serious consequences.

 

[Enduro900]

Like I said, I followed the Venezuelan elections very closely, so I've seen fraud up close. I work in IT where security is thought of a not absolute, but consistent with what you are protecting. If you take a special commando armed unit and kidnap a few key people's family you can get them to operate these machines a certain way, open separate poll centers where they add votes, and show your the results you want, no hacking needed. So the weaknesses are in many places, not just "The machine could be hacked".
(Talking about a human weakness for discussion, NOT ADVOCATING KIDNAPPING! Do not kidnap anybody)

So you protect to the reasonable level. (I did read the article posted, did not find anything surprising. Complaints the machines don't work well when the screen was not calibrated/ This is apparent to the user as the action of the machine is different than your intention when you put your finger on it.)

The fact that AP says some machines can be vulnerable doesn't mean the right measures to counter that have not been taken. Both parties have poll witnesses and observers intimately familiar with the process and had their chance to bring up concerns BEFORE the election.

There is a drop dead date where the states must certify their results with the best they have on hand. That's why Al Gore's desire to count more/better in Florida could not go forward. Once that date arrives, a result must be provided.

You can suspect all you want, but until there is actual Proof (which a judge could act on), it's not going to change anything. and you have until Dec 8 to get ahead of the Safe Harbor deadline.

No system is perfect. Are there enough flaws to throw results away in these states that are close? Even those controlled by opposing legislatures? I think the more likely answer is that folks showed up to vote.

I keep hearing a bunch of dead people voted. That should be super easy to prove. Where are their names and date of death and date voted?

One way ballots are stuffed is to use voter's info in the roles to vote. Find folks marked as voted that did not vote. That would be something. Haven't see that either.

Anyway, I think the more likely explanation is that (Insert desired Political stuff about respect and humility and specially COVID-19) so more people in these states voted as they did, and the votes are not fraudulent.

BUT it doesn't matter what I think, or if and how the machines might be tricked to flip or flap, or if the USPS guy lied or retracted his statements about fraud, it matters what can be actually PROVEN.

Please don’t hijack my thread about anything unrelated to electronic voting machines. I have zero interest in talking about other topics, but apparently your USPS “retraction” has been called inaccurate by the USPS person himself. He claims he did not retract. Google and you find both. But I don’t care either way.

But I will list some elements that your “speculation” does not line up with. It sounds like your local polling station used a different system. 28 states and 47 out of 83 counties in Michigan use this voting system....mine did not either, so by no means did everyone vote on one of these machines.

But millions of people did.

Here are some of the takeaways:

Some of the most popular such devices, from Election Systems & Software and Dominion Voting Systems, register votes in bar codes that the human eye can’t decipher. That means skilled hackers could alter outcomes without detection, gaming bar codes while keeping voters’ choices on the human-readable portion of the ballot printout, computer scientists have found.-this is what actually happened in 2 counties in Michigan...confirmed, and there is no question, this is exactly what happened. Everything looked fine but gave the other candidate credit.....and it took hours to figure out why...hand counts had one total, machine count another. Did it happen other places??? No one knows for sure, they will not allow a 3rd party to examine other counties.....and no, I do not trust my state government.

“There are a huge number of reasons to reject today’s ballot-marking devices — except for limited use as assistive devices for those unable to mark a paper ballot themselves,” says Doug Jones, a University of Iowa election security expert. Who is this guy? Some schmuck that agreed to do be in the article just to see his quote in print?? I don’t know, but he sure sounds legit. Sounds like his reason is to sound the alarm NOT to rely on these systems.

There is no crime that is ever solved in a day or two. It takes time even with a clear cut crime. They are uncovering elements now, but what is really disturbing is that you cannot investigate a crime and gather evidence if you cannot gain access to the house. And in this case, the house is not theirs, it is ours. You may say you don’t want to give access to the house. Well I also own half the house, and I do want to know. So if you don’t care, don’t just lock the door when others do.

 

[Enduro900]

Track them down! somebody saw them. If it happened, Whoever participated needs to go to JAIL. I looked one up, It appears Deborah Jean Christiansen registered to vote after death. It will be interesting, hopefully this is pursued until resolution.

Tucker reveals 'dead voters' in Nevada but GOP admits no evidence of fraud

TUCKER Carlson has named dead people he says “voted” in Nevada but the state’s GOP chairman admits he has no evidence yet of “widespread” fraud. The outspoken Fox News…

www.the-sun.com

Actually that did happen in NV.....the same amount of people voted for Jo Jergensen and “other”/write in.....which was around 10,000 votes each...I think Mickey just edged out Ronald

 

[jetivan]

1) The likelihood of any of the 4 swing states having the vote counts reversed is nearly zero. WI for example had a recount in 2016 resulting in 131 votes changed. Finding 10K+ votes that were miscounted by machines is not going to happen.

2) There's very, very little documented voter fraud. Go back and look at the Heritage Foundation report. It found 1300 cases of voter fraud. Over 40 years. Across 50 states. That works out to 0.6 fraud cases per state, per year. It might as well be zero.

3) Snowden is right and we should all be very wary about voting systems that do not have a paper trail. Luckily this isn't a huge concern as all the key swing states have a paper trail. For example, GA is about to do a hand recount of all ballots received. Software with a paper trail is key to having faith in our election systems.

4) If you really care about election processes and want to learn more then I highly recommend joining before the 2022 or 2024 races. Become a Poll Worker | U.S. Election Assistance Commission

 

[Enduro900]

1) You cannot compare any past election to this one..... this has been a cluster...period. there is confirmed info that people voted when dead (harder to pull off with walk-in, not so hard when ballots were sent off to EVERY Voter on the roll, and have you never heard of the rolls not being up to date??? And if someone moves to another state, got the ballot and voted in their previous state, that is an invalid vote. Are you willing to bet your life not one state had thousands of people fill out ballots that came in the mail (for someone else)...It could have been all one party, or 50/50 I dont care, but they should not count, and only IF forced will anyone go through those ballots for eligibility.....otherwise yes, numbers will probably not change.

2). Read [HASH=108]#1,[/HASH] this is a different election than any other. If you think there is no risk to mail-in ballot elections, why is Tulsi Gabbard trying to ban ballot harvesting then? Is she just playing party pooper?? In the dark a lot of questionable things happen.

3) Prove your statement. Please provide me evidence “all the swing states have a paper trail”. I live in Michigan, I voted on paper that I fed into a machine, and walked out with an “I voted” sticker. So a hand writing expert could examine my paper ballot that has nothing but my black pen marks filling in circles??? We have a controversy here with vote flipping by machines and I havent been contacted yet and asked who I voted for......so what is the paper trail? And again, those machines we are discussing give you a “paper receipt” with your candidates name, but the machines only read the barcode....hence the risk

4) I submitted my info to become a poll worker and was not selected, so thanks for assuming I don’t care. Funny how some of you don’t care to question anything....sorry if things dont look right to Me, but they don’t. You know when I will believe it? When A 3rd party is allowed to examine the election results in a state in question. How about start with 4 precincts in one of the states...find nothing, case closed....find something, than more precincts get examined.

 

[jetivan]

1) Please post evidence that any significant number of invalid votes were submitted. For example, as I understand it this is the sole voter fraud identified in PA so far: Man arrested for voter fraud in Luzerne County

It was caught before the election and for what its worth, it would have resulted in an extra vote for Trump.

2) Mail in ballots have been used since the 17th century so they're extremely common and they're not going away. In 2016 33 million people voted by mail. In 2020, it was almost double that, with 65 million votes by mail. Each and every one of those votes had to correspond to a registered voter.

I've seen alleged fraud such as the so-called 3000 ballots in Nevada that the Trump campaign called fraudulent, but that was quickly proven false. Military voters included on Trump campaign list of 'improperly cast' ballots: reports

3) Your ballot is the paper record of the vote. Assuming you voted in person your ballot was created at your polling station after someone checked your voter registration info, the ballot has a unique ballot number on it, was kept at a secure polling station where partisan observers were present and will be stored as required by law. The number of people who would have to conspire to destroy your ballot and replace it with another one makes it incredibly unlikely that it would happen.

4) I didn't mean to suggest that you don't care and I'm glad that you tried to participate. As far as audits go, there are partisan observers present at every step along the way. When they're doing vote counts, the election workers aren't even allowed to go to the bathroom without another worker present. There just aren't chances for employees to change thousands of votes. In Michigan's case we're talking 145K votes that would need to be changed - that's just implausible.

 

[Enduro900]

1) Please define your “significant” statement. what is that number? A billion? A million? 100,000?

Are you really going to state the only fraud or ineligible vote they are going to find in PA is 1?

If so, I would like to bet you $2000.00 that won’t be the case....please let me know if you are willing to accept my offer.

Here is a list of PA dead people that voted in 2018....how about we double down some of these people voted this year too (including boxer “smokin Joe Frazier”) He is still an eligible voter based on the latest public information:

Smokin' Joe Frazier Among 22 Dead People Who Still Vote In Philly

By Ralph Cipriano for BigTrial.net Smokin' Joe Frazier, the city's most famous boxer, may have died on Nov. 7, 2011. But he still lives on a...

www.bigtrial.net

Have you really never questioned why some areas fight tooth and nail not to clean up their voter rolls????

2) You as well as others keep conflating “Mail in” ballots and “absentee” ballots.

There is a HUGE difference. “Mail-in” refers to mass mailings of BALLOTS to everyone on the voter roll, whether they intend to vote or not, and whether the voter roll is up to date or not......so yes, a real live ballot goes out into the mail and anyone could fill it out and send it in. Remember most elections only have a 50%-60% voter turnout.....so do the math, the chances are pretty high that vote will count. And so let’s say the real person walks in (new address maybe). They vote, the mail-in is not counted/invalidated.....do you think it is investigated and prosecuted????This is the stories you are hearing about “dead people voting” or People voting that “no longer live in that state” which is still an invalid vote....we are democratic republic, a person can only vote from the state they live in.

“Absentee” ballots have a process, and in some states you need a valid reason why you cannot physically go in and vote.

Prior to this election, in my state I had to REQUEST an “absentee ballot application”, fill out the application, send in the application, then they send me a ballot to fill out and mail back. But this year, they MASS mailed out the absentee ballot applications (I think I got 2-3 applications in the mail). So everyone got the absentee applications...EVERYONE.....multiply times. Which makes it a two-step process. This is the stories of “dead people registering to vote, then voting”. So yeah someone filled out the application, sent it in, got a ballot in the mail, filled it out, and voted for some other person......there are multiple stories of people doing this for “their dead wife/etc.”.....I don’t care why or what party, it is voter fraud....I voted in person.

3) I am not talking about my local system, and I never said anything about overturning the election results in my state.....you mentioned the 145,000 vote difference In my home state....So if it is 120,000 “fraudulent” or “computer glitch” votes.....Is that still ok??? Three states are coming down to 20,000 or under. It is time to purge the system.....maybe you feel comfortable.....millions of others don’t. And yes, there is enough smoke to demand a deep dive, by a third party (no I don’t trust the fox to guard the hen house).

4) How do you know what went on in all precincts everywhere??? Does any company have the exact same process all of the country? I work for a huge company. And years ago we wore suits every day, and a very formal work environment. Once a group of us were sent to our SF office. People had very casual cloths on, slip on shoes, and a very casual environment. Same company, two different worlds. There are Not even the same election laws from state to state, so why would the process be the same? And you talk about poll watchers, etc. Have you really not heard that poll watchers were denied entry in both Detroit and Philadelphia?? This is NOT in dispute....but the push back is “well there is no evidence that anything suspicious went on just because they weren’t allowed to watch”

And then there is this guy:

Vote Counter TEARS UP Trump Ballots On Camera

"No evidence" of fraud, huh?

rumble.com

 

[fireflymedic]

1 or 2 election ago We had to go prior to election to resign voter card just in case your sig changed. Ever after that pregnant chad fiasco Florida really seems to stay on top of elections. At least in my part (panhandle)

 

[jetivan]

1) In a system where we have more than 130 million votes, I'd say that anything under 0.01% would not be significant. I noted the 1 instance in PA where voter fraud has been documented. If you want to note other verified instances, feel free.

2) I'm well aware that some states sent ballots to every registered voter. I really don't have a problem with that and if there are any cases of voter fraud where someone sold their ballot or let someone else fill out there ballot, then of course they should be prosecuted. However, for that you need evidence. Feel free to post it if you can find it.

3) Sorry but the onus is on the accusers of fraud to prove problems. Where things are close, there are recounts. Where there are accusations of fraud then there are courts available to decide the contests.

4) Some poll watchers were denied admittance, but often because there already were too many poll watchers present. There's no rule that says they need to admit 200 or 300 or 1000 poll watchers at a particular location. In some cases, poll watchers were allowed in polling stations but not in satellite offices. Perhaps the PA law should be changed but that won't happen for this election.

Philadelphia Judge rejects Trump campaign lawsuit over poll watchers at satellite sites

A Philadelphia judge has denied President Trump’s campaign the right to have poll watchers inside the city’s satellite elections offices.

www.nbcnews.com

Oh and that poll 'worker' tearing up ballots? PolitiFact - No, this video doesn’t show an election worker destroying Trump ballots. It was a joke.