Unpowered Auto Bilge Pump?

[anmut]

My buddy has a Seadoo GTX 230 PWC - as we were discussing the differences between his machine and my Yamaha boat, he pointed out something unique on his PWC - that is an automatic bilge pump that's unpowered. Uses the venturi principle to suck and pump water out of the bilge.

I wonder if something could be designed on our boats to use the pisser lines to create the same type of pump that would help keep the boat dry before water even reached the powered bilge (which we all know is set too high to pull minimal water out).

I'm not an engineer, but I did have a ton of coffee this morning.

 

[Luc Lafreniere]

The issue is that it doesn't run unless the engine runs. In a boat (aka bucket), rain comes by and it wouldn't empty. Hence the bilge pump.

Scarabs which use the exam same parts as Sea-Doo for this actually have the two holes there but they're unused and "blanked out".

I presume because it would cost a bit more for the extra parts and the electrical bilge would remain necessary.

 

[Beachbummer]

There's a drain plug with a float ball. So when you get on plane the water drains. It sucks, leaked on 4th use. Waste of $25.

Bilge pump is so important but without an alarm, you are still in trouble if it gets overwhelmed. You really want a bilge alarm so you know when it comes on AND if it's keeping up. I have 3 total. And my alarm has saved me more than once

I have too many bilge pumps said no one ever. And test from time to time

 

[anmut]

The issue is that it doesn't run unless the engine runs. In a boat (aka bucket), rain comes by and it wouldn't empty. Hence the bilge pump.

Scarabs which use the exam same parts as Sea-Doo for this actually have the two holes there but they're unused and "blanked out".

I presume because it would cost a bit more for the extra parts and the electrical bilge would remain necessary.

Well, that would be kind of the point. Adding an additional, non-powered bilge to the low point of the boat that just runs automatically as first line of defense. I certainly wouldn't advocate it as a replacement.

 

[anmut]

There's a drain plug with a float ball. So when you get on plane the water drains. It sucks, leaked on 4th use. Waste of $25.

Bilge pump is so important but without an alarm, you are still in trouble if it gets overwhelmed. You really want a bilge alarm so you know when it comes on AND if it's keeping up. I have 3 total. And my alarm has saved me more than once

I have too many bilge pumps said no one ever. And test from time to time

That I agree with. I have the built in one and two 12v Tsunami pumps for bags that can be turned into bilges for me or anyone else super quick.

 

[Beachbummer]

I recommend theT-800. I purchased the 1200 but their unusual hose size was more expensive than I would have liked. The t-800 can use 3/4 hose which is cheaper and more widely available. Since any water that you don't know where it comes from is concerning, I'm not a huge fan of the vacuum powered pump. But if you enter that space keep us posted on how it works.

 

[AZMark]

There's a drain plug with a float ball. So when you get on plane the water drains. It sucks, leaked on 4th use. Waste of $25.

That paragraph took an unexpected turn
Glad you posted that as I’ve looked at those things a bunch but hadn’t pulled the trigger yet.

 

[Cajun Bill]

The factory installed bilge pump on my 222 Sport seems to be installed too far forward, I suspect, because they're balancing the need to access and service it. (Clean the screen and release any water in freezing temps). But, it also seems on the small side. So, while I had the rear tray (which contains the manhole covers) unscrewed and open for another project, I installed a larger bilge pump about 6 inches or so from the transom. I was able to route the discharge hose around the stern on the starboard side and go out thru a new matching black 90 degree thru hull right next to the others. So, it looks to be factory installed.

 

[drewkaree]

The factory installed bilge pump on my 222 Sport seems to be installed too far forward, I suspect, because they're balancing the need to access and service it. (Clean the screen and release any water in freezing temps). But, it also seems on the small side. So, while I had the rear tray (which contains the manhole covers) unscrewed and open for another project, I installed a larger bilge pump about 6 inches or so from the transom. I was able to route the discharge hose around the stern on the starboard side and go out thru a new matching black 90 degree thru hull right next to the others. So, it looks to be factory installed.

Size is not the best indicator. You likely have a Rule 500gph pump, since you said it looks OEM. They redesigned the pump in 2019, precisely to make it smaller, to allow more mounting options, and it's more efficient than the old version that has an oval shape to it.

In using a 90 degree fitting, you also introduced a bottleneck (the elbow) to the discharge hose. It's not likely to matter in normal use, but you have a bilge pump for emergency purposes, and I have no idea if that'll cause problems at that point, but that'll be a terrible time to learn the answer.

If you now have 2 bilge pumps, I would think you're good, but reports are that new pump placement is about the same level as the engine bay pump location - the lowest level in these boats is just forward of the helm area

 

[FSH 210 Sport]

The factory installed bilge pump on my 222 Sport seems to be installed too far forward, I suspect, because they're balancing the need to access and service it. (Clean the screen and release any water in freezing temps). But, it also seems on the small side. So, while I had the rear tray (which contains the manhole covers) unscrewed and open for another project, I installed a larger bilge pump about 6 inches or so from the transom. I was able to route the discharge hose around the stern on the starboard side and go out thru a new matching black 90 degree thru hull right next to the others. So, it looks to be factory installed.

I’m assuming the bilge pump is mounted in between the engines? If it’s anything like the one in my boat, the amount of water left behind is only a gallon or two after the bilge pump shuts off. It’s good to place another pump back where you did, I did the same, you can turn this rear mounted pump on then put the boat on the hump and it will remove even more water from the back, you’d be left with about half gallon or so at that point.

One thing I did discover when I mounted my 800 gph second bilge pump, I mounted mine like you did, but that long length of hose and the extra turns seems to have created quite a bit of resistance and it doesn’t seem to flow as well as my stock 500 gallon one that has a short discharge hose and only a couple of turns, I also think it’s important to use large radius sweeping turns and not 90° turns. Those bilge pumps just have a little open rotary vane impeller in them and they’re not positive displacement so they’ll be sensitive to resistance in the line. I also removed the duck bill back flow preventer to prevent any standing water that could freeze and cause damage. If I was to do it over, I’d run the discharge out the vertical wall between the upper and lower swim steps.

Thread 'Additional Bilge pump'

Apr 11, 2022

Another thing I had wanted for some time was additional bilge pump. I had thought about the best place to mount it, next to the oem one would be convenient, but lower in the bilge would be better.

My friend suggested a simple mount that would be easy to put in and easy to remove for service. As it turns out when I tested this set up the two bilge pumps came on at the same time. The mount material is expanded pvc board.



I meant to remove the duck bill back flow preventer but forgot, I’ll be cutting that out before the next outing. The oem bilge pump did not have a...

• FSH 210 Sport
• Replies: 22
• Forum: Yamaha Center Console FSH 19x, 21x, 22x, 25x

• 

 

[Cajun Bill]

I’m assuming the bilge pump is mounted in between the engines? If it’s anything like the one in my boat, the amount of water left behind is only a gallon or two after the bilge pump shuts off. It’s good to place another pump back where you did, I did the same, you can turn this rear mounted pump on then put the boat on the hump and it will remove even more water from the back, you’d be left with about half gallon or so at that point.

One thing I did discover when I mounted my 800 gph second bilge pump, I mounted mine like you did, but that long length of hose and the extra turns seems to have created quite a bit of resistance and it doesn’t seem to flow as well as my stock 500 gallon one that has a short discharge hose and only a couple of turns, I also think it’s important to use large radius sweeping turns and not 90° turns. Those bilge pumps just have a little open rotary vane impeller in them and they’re not positive displacement so they’ll be sensitive to resistance in the line. I also removed the duck bill back flow preventer to prevent any standing water that could freeze and cause damage. If I was to do it over, I’d run the discharge out the vertical wall between the upper and lower swim steps.

Thread 'Additional Bilge pump'

Apr 11, 2022

Another thing I had wanted for some time was additional bilge pump. I had thought about the best place to mount it, next to the oem one would be convenient, but lower in the bilge would be better.

My friend suggested a simple mount that would be easy to put in and easy to remove for service. As it turns out when I tested this set up the two bilge pumps came on at the same time. The mount material is expanded pvc board.



I meant to remove the duck bill back flow preventer but forgot, I’ll be cutting that out before the next outing. The oem bilge pump did not have a...

• FSH 210 Sport
• Replies: 22
• Forum: Yamaha Center Console FSH 19x, 21x, 22x, 25x

• 

 

[Cajun Bill]

Here's a pic of my 2nd bilge pump. Yes, the OEM 500 GPH is mounted between the engines. This is an 1100 GPH, also made by Rule/Xylem. Because I don't plan to access it very often and don't want to add it to my freeze precaution list, I also removed the check valve. I know that adding 90 degree elbows increases the total dynamic head. But, it was a trade that I wanted to make given the space limitations. The discharge flow is much greater than the OEM. One day, I might have the output measured just for fun to see the actual output. The attached Rule product flyer shows a performance graph which shows the drop in performance for each foot of increased static head. So, using 1 1/8" hose, I worked to minimize the static head during the installation.

 

[VitaminSea]

I’ve been looking at the specs, and from what I can see, the OEM 500GPH and the 800 GPH use the same chassis, same size tubing, with the only difference being needing a 5AMP fuse vs a 4AMP fuse. The 800 GPH model on paper seems to double the 500GPH pump in output once you factor in any lift/backpressure. Does anyone see any issue with swapping this out and replacing the 4AMP fuse w/ a 5AMP fuse? Didn’t know if somehow this would/could throw the Connext into a tizzy. I also think this is been mentioned elsewhere, but I was pleased to find that even with the battery switches off, the pump still works in auto mode (that was not the case on my 2012).

On my to do list is to still install my high water alarm, and eventually a secondary bilge. Since picking up the new boat, haven’t had the free time, and working on a boat in 95+ degree weather is just not enjoyable!!

 

[Beachbummer]

The fuse is only a protection device. Increasing the fuse size won't increase the power of your pump. A larger fuse would allow your pump to draw more power without blowing the fuse, but seeing how it does not blow the current fuse, a larger fuse won't do anything, except slightly reduce the protection it provides.

Think of the fuse as a calibrated rope that breaks when you pull the strength supported by the string... Say you claimed you could only carry 4 pounds at a time, so if you then start carrying 5 pounds, something went wrong and must be investigated.... To prevent harm the 4 pound "string" is inserted so it breaks when you load up with 5 pounds. If you mistakenly load up with 5, the string will protect you and stop the circuit so you are not overloaded. A beefier protection string just means you are less protected and if you go nuts you will suffer the consequences vs. being stopped at your limit.

If you want more work done you need to find a guy willing to carry more, not just remove the protection limit on the circuit.


Short answer... Don't do it. Doesn't do what you think. You want more useful power, not less protection

 

[Julian]

I installed a 2nd bilge pump for offshore bimini trips. Before I began I tested the amount of water left when the stock one stopped and it was a couple of gallons. So that's really not a worry. #35 under my 242x link in my signature is a link to my 2nd bilge pump install.

 

[drewkaree]

I’ve been looking at the specs, and from what I can see, the OEM 500GPH and the 800 GPH use the same chassis, same size tubing, with the only difference being needing a 5AMP fuse vs a 4AMP fuse. The 800 GPH model on paper seems to double the 500GPH pump in output once you factor in any lift/backpressure. Does anyone see any issue with swapping this out and replacing the 4AMP fuse w/ a 5AMP fuse? Didn’t know if somehow this would/could throw the Connext into a tizzy. I also think this is been mentioned elsewhere, but I was pleased to find that even with the battery switches off, the pump still works in auto mode (that was not the case on my 2012).

On my to do list is to still install my high water alarm, and eventually a secondary bilge. Since picking up the new boat, haven’t had the free time, and working on a boat in 95+ degree weather is just not enjoyable!!

View attachment 238710

I believe they have different vanes in them. Not sure, but I think it's a quantity issue (4 vanes vs 5, or something like that).

 

[VitaminSea]

The fuse is only a protection device. Increasing the fuse size won't increase the power of your pump. A larger fuse would allow your pump to draw more power without blowing the fuse, but seeing how it does not blow the current fuse, a larger fuse won't do anything, except slightly reduce the protection it provides.

Think of the fuse as a calibrated rope that breaks when you pull the strength supported by the string... Say you claimed you could only carry 4 pounds at a time, so if you then start carrying 5 pounds, something went wrong and must be investigated.... To prevent harm the 4 pound "string" is inserted so it breaks when you load up with 5 pounds. If you mistakenly load up with 5, the string will protect you and stop the circuit so you are not overloaded. A beefier protection string just means you are less protected and if you go nuts you will suffer the consequences vs. being stopped at your limit.

If you want more work done you need to find a guy willing to carry more, not just remove the protection limit on the circuit.


Short answer... Don't do it. Doesn't do what you think. You want more useful power, not less protection

Thanks Beachbummer for the detailed response!

Sorry, I wasn’t clear in my initial posting. What I was asking was, if I were to swap out the OEM 500GPH pump for the 800GPH model it looks largely to be plug and play (can use the same strainer basket, so no new mounting & the house is the same diameter). To make it work, I would only need to source a similar electrical plug & upgrade the fuse to a 5 AMP. My reference to the Connext system was I know the screen can sense when the pump is running, as the icon flashes red. Guessing it monitors the current draw, and was wondering if the increased draw of the 800GPH pump would cause an issue.

Fully realize the fuse is a fail safe and if tripped, one never want to just replace it with a larger AMP fuse as you are just masking the issue.

 

[FSH 210 Sport]

I would recommend NOT installing a larger pump in the OEM bilge pump chassis and feeding it with the OEM wiring via a larger fuse.

You can’t just put in a larger capacity pump and fuse into the OEM WIRING without checking that the conductor size is adequate for the increased load. I’m not familiar with exactly how your system is wired, if the current flows through the connext system / screen itself, it may not be designed to handle the extra load, that would be…..expensive to say the least.

The fuse for the device is at the origin of the conductor run to the device and protects the conductor and the pump.

In addition to the number of vanes in the pump, the 800 gph pumps’ ability to move more water requires a motor that has more windings in it to produce more power, more power produced by the pump increases the amount of current being drawn from the battery via the fuse link (skinny rope) and the conductor.

The reason the icon changes on the connext screen is the same reason the back lit rocker switch lights up, the light is wired in series with the pumps motor, once the pumps float switch closes and completes the circuit current flows through the light causing it to illuminate and the pumps motor to run. In the connext screen the status of the circuit changes state and that causes the change in the icon.

If your bilge pump is the same style as the one in my boat then there are two fuses that feed the bilge pump, one for the auto functionality, this fuse is usually near the batteries, and the other fuse or in my case a circuit breaker, that feeds the manual switch.

Install a stand alone secondary bilge pump.

I don’t know if your boat came with extra switches for accessories or not, mine did, those switches for a fish finder / chart plotter etc and the other OEM switches, live well fill, aerator, bilge pump etc are all fed from the main accessory fuse, and so is the manual side of the OEM bilge pump. I wanted my second bilge pump to run independently of the OEM wiring in case something happened I’d have a bilge pump that would run on its own. So I installed an auxiliary 12V bus with a separate 10GA wire feed from its own 30A circuit breaker fed from the battery, then fed my second bilge pump off of that system with its own 5A circuit breakers, one for the auto side and another for the manual side.

You could do something similar and simpler, just run a feed from the battery for the new secondary bilge pump off of the battery, one for the auto side and one for the manual side and put a switch on the dash. If your boat came with the aforementioned accessory switches you could run this separate feed directly to one of those switches and just remove the OEM wires from the switch and safe them.

I prefer circuit breakers over fuses

 

[VitaminSea]

I would recommend NOT installing a larger pump in the OEM bilge pump chassis and feeding it with the OEM wiring via a larger fuse.

You can’t just put in a larger capacity pump and fuse into the OEM WIRING without checking that the conductor size is adequate for the increased load. I’m not familiar with exactly how your system is wired, if the current flows through the connext system / screen itself, it may not be designed to handle the extra load, that would be…..expensive to say the least.

The fuse for the device is at the origin of the conductor run to the device and protects the conductor and the pump.

In addition to the number of vanes in the pump, the 800 gph pumps’ ability to move more water requires a motor that has more windings in it to produce more power, more power produced by the pump increases the amount of current being drawn from the battery via the fuse link (skinny rope) and the conductor.

The reason the icon changes on the connext screen is the same reason the back lit rocker switch lights up, the light is wired in series with the pumps motor, once the pumps float switch closes and completes the circuit current flows through the light causing it to illuminate and the pumps motor to run. In the connext screen the status of the circuit changes state and that causes the change in the icon.

If your bilge pump is the same style as the one in my boat then there are two fuses that feed the bilge pump, one for the auto functionality, this fuse is usually near the batteries, and the other fuse or in my case a circuit breaker, that feeds the manual switch.

Install a stand alone secondary bilge pump.

I don’t know if your boat came with extra switches for accessories or not, mine did, those switches for a fish finder / chart plotter etc and the other OEM switches, live well fill, aerator, bilge pump etc are all fed from the main accessory fuse, and so is the manual side of the OEM bilge pump. I wanted my second bilge pump to run independently of the OEM wiring in case something happened I’d have a bilge pump that would run on its own. So I installed an auxiliary 12V bus with a separate 10GA wire feed from its own 30A circuit breaker fed from the battery, then fed my second bilge pump off of that system with its own 5A circuit breakers, one for the auto side and another for the manual side.

You could do something similar and simpler, just run a feed from the battery for the new secondary bilge pump off of the battery, one for the auto side and one for the manual side and put a switch on the dash. If your boat came with the aforementioned accessory switches you could run this separate feed directly to one of those switches and just remove the OEM wires from the switch and safe them.

I prefer circuit breakers over fuses

Thanks for the feedback and your approach aligns with how I previously wired a 2nd bilge (added a 3 way switch - AUTO/OFF/ON), wired directly to the battery. On the new boat, I either will use one of the extra aux switches, or perhaps add a panel, similar to Julian’s install for both the high water alarm and to manually turn on the secondary pump, with the auto hardwired to the battery.

It seems upgrading the OEM pump could potentially introduce challenges with the Connext system due to the increased draw. To note, in the Rule manual, they recommend the same gauge wiring for all 3 of their pumps. I have yet to confirm the OEM wiring AWG, but it was on the list to validate, but is now a moot point.

As an aside, the fuse I am aware of is next to the battery switch. I have not come across any fuses/circuit breakers under the helm - haven’t looked in great detail yet, as it’s a bit of a squeeze with the steering and throttle setups for the DriveX. Completely different than the legacy models and the FSH models where each toggle/rocker switch on the dash had a breaker integrated. Here’s what the manual shows when searching for “fuse”, and it looks like each of the unused AUX switches are fused back by the battery switches. Makes me wonder how the AMP is fused, as it looks like there is no in-line fuse, and just the fuses integrated into the amp.

 

[FSH 210 Sport]

Right on…. You could just add your second bilge pump, run a separate fused auto wire and use one of your accessory switches to run the manual run side, you’d just have to add a fuse holder for the manual run side at 5A since the accessory switches is fused at 20A.

The older boats like the one you had, the bilge pump would run for 30 seconds every two minutes I think to check for water and that’s why they were wired onto the switched side of the battery switches. As you noted now the auto side is wired directly to the battery this because the bilge pumps now use some sort of an internal float switch or sensor with a minuscule amount of draw. This enables you to leave the battery switches off to keep from draining them while on the water with no shore power available for the battery charger.

I also added a raw water wash down pump, the dvsr power to my boat in addition to the second bilge pump and have plans to add a few more things, lights-spreader and courtesy, and a vhf radio that will be switched, a few 12V power points and I will power those off of the aux buss I put in as well. As mentioned before I wanted the second bilge pump fed separately, wanted more room for expansion and I didn’t want to start messing with the OEM wire loom.