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VW's "clean" diesel?

Reading more @veedubtek is absolutely right... there's bound to be more manufacturers with "creative interpretations" out there!
Just came across this, from 2012: http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1352231012008412
"The on-road NOx emissions of diesel cars, furthermore, appear to exceed substantially applicable emissions standards."
Surely they're not always just talking about VWs - especially in Europe where every major manufacturer has a diesel available in damned near every model they offer. And is this also not an affirmation of what we all knew from the get go - that the testing procedure itself is arbitrary bullshit?
Just wondering...
 
Another aspect to consider is what will the dealers do. Now they sit with inventory that they can't sell, either because they are waiting on the fix from VW or Volkswagen's reputation has taken such a big hit that no one wants to touch them right now. I assume dealers will sue VW for lost profits. How much more could that pile on?
 
@Britboater why do you hate diesel cars?[/QUOTE]

It really stems from experience in the automotive industry and being a real petrolhead, gearhead I think is the US translation. When I started driving in the late 70's you never heard of a diesel car, diesel was for trucks, buses and tractors. As technology increased diesel powered cars gained popularity due to the ever increasing fuel prices and the excellent MPG diesels could achieve. I hated them then, noisy, smelly and no performance.
By the 90's diesel powered cars overtook gasoline cars in sales, and at this time I was in the employment of Land Rover in Solihull, Birmingham. I was there when BMW purchased LR, a plan to extract 4X4 technology they didn't have to build their own, the X5. The diesel engines that were being fitted to luxury Range Rovers were awful, thus, confirming my dislike of diesels.
For years now I've pointed out to friends and family the pollution diesels kick out, soot particles etc, plus diesel exhaust contains toxic air contaminants and is listed as carcinogen for humans. I believe Paris, France is about to ban all diesel cars from the capital, roomers are London will follow. Yes, I know modern engines are far cleaner, but as whats being discovered now, the current government standard for emissions is getting more and more difficult, if not unreachable. The technology on a modern diesel engine is unbelievable, so much so a bit of advice, do not buy one unless you have full warranty. I know I've had this discussion with you before @Julian you love your Q7, excellent car and engine (for a diesel :p) my wife has an A5 with the V6 TDi, it pulls like a train, good economy, but the engine was only chosen because of economy. I was even amazed the other day when washing it that inside the tall pipes it was shiny clean, I mean, no sign of soot at all. But you get into the same car with the V6 gas engine, no comparison, except heavier economy.
The new age gasoline engines are becoming far more economical now, thank the lord, and so much cleaner, to quote Jeremy Clarkson when he recently tested the new Porsche and drove through central London, "this car is actually kicking out cleaner air than it is sucking in, everyone should have one to clean the earth of diesel pollution!"
Like I mentioned, everyone to their own, but I love performance, sound and the power delivery of a gas engine, plus I know its cleaner.
 
I have a 2006 Jetta TDI. It has totally different engine mechanics/design and was manufactured before all emissions requirements changed. Unfortunately most people won't know that. So if I ever try to sell it, the car will likely get lumped with the "bad" others. Last week I was actually debating selling it. Don't think that is an option now. Oh well, still gets 45mpg either way, so will be keeping it. My only saving grace is that it is the "last of the mohicans" that can still burn 100% biodiesel without any issues. So might still get some premium there if can find the right buyer.

My guess, as far as the future goes, is we have seen the last of diesel cars in the US. Diesel cars are such a small market to begin with, have always had to fight the stigma of dirty polluters, diesel fuel is higher than gas (offsets the $$ economy of it), the diesel engine is often an additional $5K cost, the emissions standards will eventually neuter the power output to a point that they are dogs to drive, the maintenance is ridiculously expensive (my turbo went out just this week, there went $2000. ) and gas engines keep getting cleaner & more efficient. Why would anyone buy a diesel in the future?
 
Like I mentioned, everyone to their own, but I love performance, sound and the power delivery of a gas engine, plus I know its cleaner.

The last few years at Le Mans (the road-racing classic) - the front-running prototypes are all diesel-powered.
 
Give me a break.
I drive a 2013 Passat TDI daily. That thing is awesome and pulls like a mule. It is a fairly large sedan giving me 44mpg with a close to 700 mile range... That is better than Prius last time I checked.
You can swipe a clean tissue inside the exhaust - you will get no black residue.
Emissions my @$$.


As my friend very bluntly exclaimed. HIS 2013 passat TDI is NOT included in the scandal. VERY bottom of the link I posted has all affected vehicles. I think he thought i was making fun of the car....when in fact... they are still fantastic, but VW is naughty, lied to sell more cars.

he loves that car, and so do I.

here are the affected vehicles SO FAR.

  • 2009-2015 Volkswagen Jetta and Jetta SportWagen TDI
  • 2009-2015 Volkswagen Beetle and Beetle Convertible
  • 2009-2015 Volkswagen Golf
  • 2014-2015 Volkswagen Passat
  • 2015 Volkswagen Golf SportWagen
  • 2009-2015 Audi A3
 
There is no getting around the fact that VW is in a world or hurt when it comes to fines, recalls, reputation damage etc. This sort of thing can put a company out of business.

I hope it doesn't impact resale value too much....if it does, studies like this one will have to get some numbers adjusted!
http://www.bankrate.com/finance/auto/diesel-cars-cheaper-to-own-than-gas-models-2.aspx

Since diesel fuel contains more energy and isn't more expensive to refine, the simple math would suggest that diesel vehicles make more sense over gas ones. I think electric ones will continue to evolve and will change this discussion--they are already faster....just need to work on the range.

In the meantime, a diesel SUV/Truck is way better for pulling a boat than its gas counterpart. WAY better mileage, and better low end torque.
 
There is no getting around the fact that VW is in a world or hurt when it comes to fines, recalls, reputation damage etc. This sort of thing can put a company out of business.

I hope it doesn't impact resale value too much....if it does, studies like this one will have to get some numbers adjusted!
http://www.bankrate.com/finance/auto/diesel-cars-cheaper-to-own-than-gas-models-2.aspx

Since diesel fuel contains more energy and isn't more expensive to refine, the simple math would suggest that diesel vehicles make more sense over gas ones. I think electric ones will continue to evolve and will change this discussion--they are already faster....just need to work on the range.

In the meantime, a diesel SUV/Truck is way better for pulling a boat than its gas counterpart. WAY better mileage, and better low end torque.

I agree here. 100%. the TDI, though I wanted a passat badly...just wouldn't pay for itself. regardless of recent scandals :) If I were to get a new truck, Id HAVE to think diesel.

I REALLY REALLY want to get into electric. just not QUITE there, its not range for me though... I just dont drive enough for the added cost to be offset by my mileage.. I commute on my bike 90% of the year. already gets 40+mpg, and only cost me 4grand lol. Have you looked into electric lately, @Julian ? the new small Tesla coming is supposed to be 250 miles. which is impressive. I think its coming. However, It makes sense for my wife to drive one, her commute is 50 miles highway. mine, is 7. :) but her car is what we tow with. so it cant be replaced just yet.

Actually, we were semi-discussing the BMW electric car..... but wed need the second car for out of town trips and towing the boat. Though I read you can get the Electric car with a "range extender" which is actually a small gas engine. pretty good idea there...honestly.

not the most attractive car...but its cool, and being frugal rarely is either... i think the next time we are due for a new car, it will have to be discussed again.

bmw-i3-2013-07-29-01-1375106786.jpg



I also spent a LOT of time researching the "zero" motorcycles. then obsessed over the Isle of Man tt electric race, and victory's new E bike. pretty cool stuff.

Now I need a wind turbine in my backyard, and wed be set. LOL I laugh, but thats half serious.

sorry. off topic. thats a whole 'nother thread.
 
Actually, we were semi-discussing the BMW electric car..... but wed need the second car for out of town trips and towing the boat. Though I read you can get the Electric car with a "range extender" which is actually a small gas engine. pretty good idea there...honestly.

At the risk of initial thread creep, BMW is offering an extended (48 hour) test drive on these. Did it and loved the little car - from the inside... The range extender, FYI, is a gas engine that charges the battery ONLY, no actual "connection" to the drive train. Should really be called a gas generator rather than gas engine... Only problem is that the stupid tank is only something like two gallons so yeah, you *could* drive on when the battery's dead but you'll be stopping for gas frequently. Still, a nice safety blanket. Forget about towing anything other than a bike rack, by the way. And then there's the PRICE! Ouch.

And then there's the point I wanted to make that kinda' ties back to VW... IMHO, there's so much "greenwashing" going on these days. The absurdly overpriced i3 and Teslas, and all the ancillary baggage that goes with electrics (like, um, the batteries, which remind me of when nuclear energy first came out: we'll worry about what to do with the old/used crap later). For the diesels the fuel economy is undeniable - but that they could possibly be "eco-friendly"... Puhlease.
 
That's pretty damn funny rollin coal!, Guys I was a Mercedes Benz master tech for years, and worked on very advanced diesels, Its just nasty stuff, and the guy how commented about wiping the exhaust with a tissue, face-palm its the gases you cant see that kill, seriously. Dodge trucks got nailed to the wall b/c they claimed they don't need DEF, 2 years I think and yeah they added it back. Anyways I am a gas lover, and only drive GM products, I work on it, fix it (which really means adding mods), and tune my own cars and trucks, and sadly I know exactly how they got around this and other emission testing.

this Yamaha boat I have is going to get twin LSA engines one day mark my words. 1100+ HP jetboat woooooo!

can you image 2 of these sitting there when you pop the engine hatch!
 

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That's pretty damn funny rollin coal!, Guys I was a Mercedes Benz master tech for years, and worked on very advanced diesels, Its just nasty stuff, and the guy how commented about wiping the exhaust with a tissue, face-palm its the gases you cant see that kill, seriously. Dodge trucks got nailed to the wall b/c they claimed they don't need DEF, 2 years I think and yeah they added it back. Anyways I am a gas lover, and only drive GM products, I work on it, fix it (which really means adding mods), and tune my own cars and trucks, and sadly I know exactly how they got around this and other emission testing.

this Yamaha boat I have is going to get twin LSA engines one day mark my words. 1100+ HP jetboat woooooo!

can you image 2 of these sitting there when you pop the engine hatch!

<drools> bitchin.

as an ex californian, whos lived in Iowa since 89... i remember the first time I flew back into LA.. air is clean here, but on farms...truck stops. the diesel smell is strong. Not unpleasant, but strong. Got off plane smelled diesel the whole week I was out there LOL diesel seems dirtier, yet economical.

santa barbara had air quality problems. i remember reading that. trucks, trains, and the huge container ships... all diesel.

as for vw, yeah theyre screwed...but... LOL

rna3zlt.jpg
 
I don't have an impacted VW diesel but I'm hearing a lot of complaining on the radio. I feel for the average Joes that have one. They are concerned about what this means to them when they go to have their cars smogged the next time around. Here in CA they are tested on a dyno I believe (i.e., you put the wheels with power on a drum and they spin the car up during the test). This happens every two years and if you don't pass smog you can't register the car. I can only imagine how upset I would be to suddenly have a car that won't pass the emissions test through no act or omission of my own, especially if I was still making payments on it.
 
I don't have an impacted VW diesel but I'm hearing a lot of complaining on the radio. I feel for the average Joes that have one. They are concerned about what this means to them when they go to have their cars smogged the next time around. Here in CA they are tested on a dyno I believe (i.e., you put the wheels with power on a drum and they spin the car up during the test). This happens every two years and if you don't pass smog you can't register the car. I can only imagine how upset I would be to suddenly have a car that won't pass the emissions test through no act or omission of my own, especially if I was still making payments on it.
This is a good question....Do they just test it like usual?. Even though the cheat software is still active? It'll pass but everyone knows only because it's breaking the law.
 
Well, look at this: http://www.wsj.com/articles/volkswagens-shares-take-tumble-after-epas-fresh-allegations-1446559388 (from the Wall Street Journal)

Volkswagen Understated Carbon Dioxide Emissions
Auto maker’s gasoline-fueled cars drawn into emissions scandal for first time

By WILLIAM BOSTON
Updated Nov. 3, 2015 3:10 p.m. ET

Volkswagen AG said it understated the level of carbon dioxide emissions in its past certifications for about 800,000 cars, a revelation that brings its gasoline-powered vehicles into its diesel-emissions scandal for the first time.

Europe’s largest auto maker estimated the financial risk to the company from the new admission was about €2 billion ($2.19 billion,) but didn’t explain how it reached that figure. Last week, the company recorded a charge to earnings of €6.7 billion.

The company disclosed the error on Tuesday after conducting its own emissions tests. The report that some Volkswagen vehicles exceed CO2 levels is a fresh blow after its admission in September that 11 million diesel-powered vehicles world-wide could have been affected by so-called defeat devices that artificially lowered tailpipe emissions of nitrogen oxides during emissions testing.

The auto maker provided few details in a statement Tuesday, but said that documentation of around 800,000 vehicles provided CO2 levels that were too low.

Volkswagen initiated an internal investigation after admitting some diesel-powered cars with model years between 2009 and 2014 used software that could lowered nitrogen oxide emissions during testing conditions. U.S. and European authorities have opened up their own regulatory and criminal probes.

The Wolfsburg, Germany-based auto maker said it was in contact with regulatory agencies to determine steps needed to clarify the situation and to establish accurate values for the CO2 emissions of the affected vehicles.

“From the very beginning I set out to ensure that we mercilessly and completely clear up this situation,” said Volkswagen Chief Executive Matthias Müller in a statement, “This is a painful process but there is no alternative.”

The company’s supervisory board released its own statement, saying it is “deeply concerned” about the latest revelations that the company’s emissions-cheating scandal is widening further and pledged to meet soon to discuss taking action.

Volkswagen disclosed the new test results after European markets closed. Earlier in the day, Volkswagen shares fell as much as 5% on the

Frankfurt Stock Exchange before retracing some of the loss. That decline followed fresh allegations of emissions cheating by U.S. environmental authorities on Monday.

Monday’s allegations by the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency hit Porsche, Volkswagen’s sports-car brand and big profit center, for the first time. Mr. Müller previously ran Porsche, and the latest news raised questions of what he might have known about engines at Volkswagen’s top-flight brands.

The EPA said it found so-called defeat devices on 3.0 liter diesel engines used in larger Volkswagen sport-utility vehicles such as its Touraeg, Porsche’s Cayenne, Audi’s Q5 and Q7, and Audi A6 and A8 sedans. The regulator said the vehicles it tested had increased nitrogen-oxide emissions up to nine times the allowable standard.

Volkswagen shares, which have slumped badly amid the emissions scandal, fell early Tuesday, but finished off less than 2% at €109.35 ($119.69) in 4 p.m. trading in Frankfurt.

Volkswagen dismissed the EPA’s latest allegations, saying it didn’t install any emissions-cheating software on the engines used in these vehicles.

A spokesman said any discussion about consequences from the EPA allegations is irrelevant because in this case the company did nothing wrong.

What rattled investors when European stock markets opened on Tuesday was concern that the new allegations could threaten Mr. Müller just over a month after he took charge in the wake of Volkswagen’s admission that it had cheated on emissions tests by using a so-called defeat device on up to 11 million small and midsize diesel-powered cars.

That admission led to the resignation of Martin Winterkorn, the former CEO, and catapulted Mr. Müller from head of Porsche AG to chief of Volkswagen. Now, analysts are asking whether an insider like Mr. Müller is the right person to lead Volkswagen out of the worst crisis in the company’s 78-year history.

“The allegations are all the more serious given that VW’s new CEO Matthias Müller came from Porsche and any hint of further deception could well see his position come under scrutiny,” said Michael Hewson, chief market analyst at CMC Markets, a brokerage.

Mr. Müller became Porsche chief in 2010. An insider, he was a protégé of his predecessor and liked by the Porsche-Piëch clan that controls Volkswagen’s voting stock. He oversaw Volkswagen group product planning from 2007 to 2010.

“I was astonished that Porsche’s Matthias Müller was appointed CEO of VW,” said David Buik, a market commentator at Panmure Gordon. “There was always a chance that Porsche and Audi would be directly or indirectly involved in the diesel saga.”

Volkswagen’s diesel woes have kept investors on edge, but seem to have little impact on German consumers. Germany’s motor vehicle agency reported Tuesday that registrations of new diesel-powered cars rose 6% in October.

“Diesel is a key technology for us,” said Harald Krüger, BMW AG chief executive, during an earnings call with analysts on Tuesday. “At the moment, we are seeing no impact on sales from the diesel issue, but I must add that it is still early days.”

—Natascha Divac contributed to this article.

DRIP, DRIP, DRIP
 
They are under a very high powered microscope. I'd like to see the file on "operation emissions cheat" but we never will. It's fascinating to me that a company could be so arrogant.
 
They are under a very high powered microscope. I'd like to see the file on "operation emissions cheat" but we never will. It's fascinating to me that a company could be so arrogant.

Germans, Arrogant????!!! Never.......
 
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