What to buy. 212x, NXT20, Supreme S21

[Chris Oneslager]

The trim issue people are mentioning has to do with shallow water driving. V-drives and direct drives have a fixed drive train below the waterline and require a certain amount of draft otherwise the rudder, prop, driveshaft and strut can hit the bottom causing damage to both the boat and your wallet.

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Right, I understand that, just like a I/O except I cant raise it. I am trying to refer to the plates on the back of the boat. Beyond shaping the wave for surf, it appears you can use them like trim on an I/O.

 

[FloJet]

Seems you are talking about the wedge for creating better wakes. Those are just for wake generators. You can tailor the wake to how the boarder likes it. But it's not intended to trim your boat up or down. As previous have stated before, the advantages of the V-Trim is for wake/surfing. You would have to be extra careful to make sure you don't go to shallow waters. Another disadvantage I see is you def will need to know your ramps pretty good to avoid any mishaps too as some ramps can be too shallow for V-Trims. For most of us jet owners, all those headaches you have to worry about just to surf or wake board is enough to lure us to the Jet drives. Only thing I worry about is sucking up things. I sucked a rope once, no problem, opened the clean out port and cut it away and was on my way again. With V-trim, accidental accident to the trim and the whole trip is done for us.

To be honest don't let it scare you about using the yamaha for water sports. I have an AR 240 and I have friends who can wake and surf behind with no problems and I don't have any mods to it. For wake boarding, I don't consider them professionals but for some reason they can still pull off back flips and stuff. So i never understood what the wake board boats are trying to accomplish when a well seasoned boarder can pull tricks off just about any boat. No for wake skate it can be done with a yamaha but just not as good as boarding. It's all about the weight you have on board, where it's allocated to, and the rider too. I always go with what you want and what your family is looking for. Either way you choose, I really don't think you would be that much limited for your water sport. With the 212x you will be able to wake skate just about as good as any another boat. It's all subjective in what you are trying to achieve. Many folks out there over think it too much.



Also another thing I really like about my AR240 vs my old Sea ray was I can trim up or down without touching any annoying push levels. Once you learn to drive a jet, slight steady throttle will trim you up and you can adjust from there. I can get my AR to ride way higher than what my I/O did. Just have to get used to the throttle control.

 

[luckie_529]

I almost bought an S21 but we travel on the water to much. S21 and NXT are both nice boats. Good luck

 

[dustinjean]

everyone always complains about v drives ridding rough in chop yet my v drive handles chop way way way better than my ar210 ever thought about. while im parking the truck/trailer my wife fills our front ballast if its choppy out then when we get to our ridding spot we fill the rear and center ballast and enjoy the rest of our day surfing and wakeboarding, yes they have slower top end but their not speed boats their wake boats made for the low end torque. i took a member on here out one time that owns a scarab jet boat and he couldnt believe the torque and now hes ready to upgrade when finances line up because of going out that day and seeing and feeling a real surf wave etc.

 

[jpass]

everyone always complains about v drives ridding rough in chop yet my v drive handles chop way way way better than my ar210 ever thought about. while im parking the truck/trailer my wife fills our front ballast if its choppy out then when we get to our ridding spot we fill the rear and center ballast and enjoy the rest of our day surfing and wakeboarding, yes they have slower top end but their not speed boats their wake boats made for the low end torque. i took a member on here out one time that owns a scarab jet boat and he couldnt believe the torque and now hes ready to upgrade when finances line up because of going out that day and seeing and feeling a real surf wave etc.

Couldn't agree more. I love my jetboat, don't get me wrong, but it doesn't even come close to the performance and features of a purpose built ski/wake boat. I've been in a few X23's, Super Airs and G series boats and was completely blown away by the fit and finish, quality of materials, technology and layout of these boats. That's why they cost as much as they do and are worth every penny.

These newer jetboats will do the job for most people in regards to water sports, but there's simply no comparison of the two in both performance and price. I do see these these boats getting better suited for watersports in the future, but as they add features, the prices will climb putting them in the same price range as the more expensive purpose built boats.

 

[Chris Oneslager]

Seems you are talking about the wedge for creating better wakes. Those are just for wake generators. You can tailor the wake to how the boarder likes it. But it's not intended to trim your boat up or down. As previous have stated before, the advantages of the V-Trim is for wake/surfing. You would have to be extra careful to make sure you don't go to shallow waters. Another disadvantage I see is you def will need to know your ramps pretty good to avoid any mishaps too as some ramps can be too shallow for V-Trims. For most of us jet owners, all those headaches you have to worry about just to surf or wake board is enough to lure us to the Jet drives. Only thing I worry about is sucking up things. I sucked a rope once, no problem, opened the clean out port and cut it away and was on my way again. With V-trim, accidental accident to the trim and the whole trip is done for us.

Had to find where I read it in the NXT manual...if you look at the special conditions, that sure sounds like use the wake plates like trim. Just wanted to know if anyone has experience with it.

 

[OperationROL]

everyone always complains about v drives ridding rough in chop yet my v drive handles chop way way way better than my ar210 ever thought about. while im parking the truck/trailer my wife fills our front ballast if its choppy out then when we get to our ridding spot we fill the rear and center ballast and enjoy the rest of our day surfing and wakeboarding, yes they have slower top end but their not speed boats their wake boats made for the low end torque. i took a member on here out one time that owns a scarab jet boat and he couldnt believe the torque and now hes ready to upgrade when finances line up because of going out that day and seeing and feeling a real surf wave etc.

Just so everyone is clear:

No one is arguing that a wake specific boat is not better for wake specific activities. Yes, the low end torque can pull a bus. Yes the wake is great, not to mention that you don't have to hassle with a bunch of ballast bags and attachable items. Those things are true and I love all the wake boats that I have the pleasure of riding on. My next door neighbor has a MC X25 and I loves it. His sister had an Axis A22 and I loved it. @007 has a Tige Z23 and I love it. @trace has a Tige Z21 and I love it. @Sheboat has a Malibu Wakesetter (can't remember the model, but high end) and I love it. I absolutely love them. Wake sports are very convenient and a better experience on those boats and the fit and finish is extremely high quality. All those people made the decision that boating for them is mostly about the wake surfing and they needed to step up to better equipment for those reasons and they did. Hats off to them and best of all, I get an occasional ride! I am not there yet and choose to stay with a Yamaha for the reasons I stated. Price, draft, versatility, speed and design. A lot has been said about prices of Yamahas going so high that it puts the wake boats at a comparable prices point. I still have not seen that. If I get a wake boat, it will have all the trimmings and accessories I am use to and you can't get that for a Yamaha price. Those are my reasons and the OP wanted to know that of everyone. I choose to drive a Chevy Silverado instead of a GMC Sierra, which has better trim, after weighing the pros and cons just like I did with my boat. Can I afford it........yeah, do I get enough out of the upgrade to warrant it for my family's use.......probably not (in my case), so I made the decision to stick with the very capable model, while accepting that there are others out there with better features.

@dustinjean, as you validate, a wake boat will porpoise like crazy if no weight is added to the front. I am happy that you systematically have figured out a great way to prevent this in yours. Also, I understand that it is not a speedboat. That is exactly what I wrote. If speed is important to someone, it is something they should consider. If not, great!

 

[Sheboat]

We traded in our 2007 Yamaha SX230 for a Malibu Wakesetter 23LSV this year. First thing I will say is that we put as many hours on our Malibu this first season as we did in 3 years with our Yamaha. The reason is we didn't do any water sports any more with our Yamaha because we just didn't like it. While tubing we were always getting spray in the face even with trying different tubes, ropes and those inflatable balls. When I did ski I always stayed out of the wake otherwise it was like skiing on rumble strips. I am not saying you can't do all those things on the Yamaha, I am just saying we didn't enjoy it anymore so we just cruised and floated most of the time. I do miss the Yamaha, I loved that boat! It was so comfortable and roomy, the swim deck was great and I was never afraid to cruise in shallow water or hit the big waves of Lake Michigan and I became a pretty good driver when it came to maneuvering that boat without any fins. I miss going on the all day river cruises with our friends from this site but I am worried now about hitting something on the river and damaging the prop and we don't have a head any more which is significant for us girls. Also, I am not sure we would get the same gas mileage at the Yamaha cruising speed. So yes there are pros and cons to both but I am now in love with this Malibu and I love hitting the lake and doing some surfing and skiing and our friend and family are all joining in on the water sports. One difference with the Malibu vs other inboards is the Surf Gate, this allows you to fill all the ballasts and be able to switch the wake from one side to the other with a push of the button even while under way. You will not have to stop and adjust your ballast for someone that is goofy foot, you just push the button and they hop in and go. I am pretty sure we will get another Yamaha some day when we are too old to wake surf and just want to go back to cruising and floating.

 

[Chris Oneslager]

We traded in our 2007 Yamaha SX230 for a Malibu Wakesetter 23LSV this year. First thing I will say is that we put as many hours on our Malibu this first season as we did in 3 years with our Yamaha. The reason is we didn't do any water sports any more with our Yamaha because we just didn't like it. While tubing we were always getting spray in the face even with trying different tubes, ropes and those inflatable balls. When I did ski I always stayed out of the wake otherwise it was like skiing on rumble strips. I am not saying you can't do all those things on the Yamaha, I am just saying we didn't enjoy it anymore so we just cruised and floated most of the time. I do miss the Yamaha, I loved that boat! It was so comfortable and roomy, the swim deck was great and I was never afraid to cruise in shallow water or hit the big waves of Lake Michigan and I became a pretty good driver when it came to maneuvering that boat without any fins. I miss going on the all day river cruises with our friends from this site but I am worried now about hitting something on the river and damaging the prop and we don't have a head any more which is significant for us girls. Also, I am not sure we would get the same gas mileage at the Yamaha cruising speed. So yes there are pros and cons to both but I am now in love with this Malibu and I love hitting the lake and doing some surfing and skiing and our friend and family are all joining in on the water sports. One difference with the Malibu vs other inboards is the Surf Gate, this allows you to fill all the ballasts and be able to switch the wake from one side to the other with a push of the button even while under way. You will not have to stop and adjust your ballast for someone that is goofy foot, you just push the button and they hop in and go. I am pretty sure we will get another Yamaha some day when we are too old to wake surf and just want to go back to cruising and floating.

Great comments and you hit the nail on the head. We had a Seadoo Challenger 180 255HP that we just sold and if I had a dollar for everytime I got yelled at for leaving the tube in the middle of the wake, I could buy about any boat. The spray on the tube was really harsh and I also had to work it outside the wake, but when the water was a little rough, the tube got rough as well. The skiers were able to cope with the wake but it should be nice to control the wake more for skiers. We have never done any rivir runs, just at the regional lakes.

Lots of information to consume.

 

[MattFX4]

mmmmmm....my next boat! My neighbor has a 2016 and it is awesome! My son is turning 2. One of these will be in my driveway when he is old enough to put on a board.

 

[007]

Lots of good info by all in this thread. The following comments are my opinion alone, experiences may vary:

I will disagree with only one comment my good friend @OperationROL made. I don't feel my Tige porpoises more than my Yamaha. In fact I feel I have more control. The particular boat hull will determine if weight in the bow will help with this. In mine it's not any more effective running bow weight than adjusting the attitude of the boat with the TAPS2 plate. If I add weight when running in heavy chop (LOTO main channel), I add it fairly evenly in the boat. Throttle control (ie - speed) is important in both boat types to reduce any porpoising.

It sounds like @Sheboat enjoys pulling a tube more with her Malibu. I don't. Mostly because I am pulling young kids and the wake is so deep its hard to get them in and out of the wake without going too fast for their comfort. The boat is so freaking heavy it flattens out all the fun stuff! We do both agree that we miss our Yamaha's for being awesome all around boats.

A dedicated wake boat will mostly ride rougher in chop because of the hull shape and be less adequate at all around usage. That said, I love our boat. Knowing your boat well impacts how you make it perform in most situations. Our boat is almost 2k pounds heavier than our Yamaha, both labeled as 23'ers! So, I tend not to be bounced around as much as my lighter jet boat was and definitely don't get loose crossing wakes like a finless/rudderless jet boat can.

At the price point Yamaha has increased too, the jump to a dedicate wake boat isn't nearly as far as the sticker would suggest. A wake boat dealer will generally have a larger margin to deal on, especially off season or model year change. I would also humbly counter the argument that resale is worse on an inboard. Mine is still worth approx 85-88% of purchase price on trade 2 years later. Yes, I bought very well, but you have more opportunity to do that if you shop smart. My Yamaha did very well too on value. It was still worth 60-70% of purchase price (below MSRP) 7 years later.

So why buy one over the other? It depends on what you like to do the most. Purpose built wake boats ski, surf, wakeboard better out of the box hands down. Can you do awesome things by modifying your Yamaha? Yep! But if you are somewhere between casual enthusiast and wishing you were a pro, you may want more that a jet boat can offer. For us, we do water sports 95% of the time. In fact my wife is always asking me if I am filling ballast before the boat is backed out of the slip and the motor is warm! We bought our boat for this one reason - SURF! I feel it does it as well or better than any other boat on the market:

 

[007]

I was in all the way on a 212X last year and waiting for the 2017's. Now the extra 8-9K has put the boat into a new price range an new competition.

I have access to a new loaded NXT20 and a loaded Supreme SKI 21s, both the same price or less than the 212X this year. Loved my SeaDoo Challenger 180, but too loud.

Really leaning towards the Mastercraft NXT20 or the Sumpreme S21.

Thoughts? Anyone have an opinion on the Supreme Ski boats?

BTW - if its about surfing, surf NXT and the Supreme. It seems to me there is a pretty big difference in the wave making ability of a 20ft. boat vs. a 21fter for most manufacturers. This is based on very limited observations on my part, thus the suggestion to try them both with an owner or dealer who knows how the heck to set up a surf wave!

 

[d_coyne1984]

I was in all the way on a 212X last year and waiting for the 2017's. Now the extra 8-9K has put the boat into a new price range an new competition.

I have access to a new loaded NXT20 and a loaded Supreme SKI 21s, both the same price or less than the 212X this year. Loved my SeaDoo Challenger 180, but too loud.

Really leaning towards the Mastercraft NXT20 or the Sumpreme S21.

Thoughts? Anyone have an opinion on the Supreme Ski boats?

My buddy picked up a Supreme 21s this year and We've had a blast in that thing. If you are into water sports, it will make a 212x look like a silly play thing in comparison with the waves it's capable of. Quality seems great and the engine is whisper quiet until you get up to high RPS and it just sounds dead sexy. It will probably be my next boat. I have been very happy with my Yamaha for it it is and what I paid, but damn it's fun to be launched by a real wake. He had trim tabs on his which I recommend for really shaping the wake beautifully. It makes more of a difference than you would believe.

 

[FloJet]

Sounds like everyone has their own taste and that's what I love about AMERICA. We are free to choose what we like. But on that being said, Alot of you all are comparing old Yamaha boats to new Wake boats. Yamaha 230 is nothing like a AR240 nowdays. Drastically improved. 212x is no way like the old 212. Yes Wake boats are way way way better than Yamaha for wake boarding. But besides that, my 2016 AR240 will & can do the same and more than any wake boat out there. I live in a area with nothing but wake boats all around and again most of these owners can't believe what this yamaha can do. To me the maintenance and potential dangers wake board boats present does not outweigh the pros.

But not to bust bubbles but @Oneslager wanted some good info and advise on things he has seen on certain wake boats, example the wedge. I think it would be helpful if we can all get our posts to help the man and his family get his dream vessel to join all of us next year! Whatever you go with I promise you will be happy, I know I am Hehehe.

I think the best thing to do is go demo your choices before you make the decision. I am sure there are many members who have both sytles to have you take a look if the dealer does not want to. If you were in OK, I would be more than happy to show you what Yamaha's are about nowdays.

 

[Chris Oneslager]

Sounds like everyone has their own taste and that's what I love about AMERICA. We are free to choose what we like. But on that being said, Alot of you all are comparing old Yamaha boats to new Wake boats. Yamaha 230 is nothing like a AR240 nowdays. Drastically improved. 212x is no way like the old 212. Yes Wake boats are way way way better than Yamaha for wake boarding. But besides that, my 2016 AR240 will & can do the same and more than any wake boat out there. I live in a area with nothing but wake boats all around and again most of these owners can't believe what this yamaha can do. To me the maintenance and potential dangers wake board boats present does not outweigh the pros.

But not to bust bubbles but @Oneslager wanted some good info and advise on things he has seen on certain wake boats, example the wedge. I think it would be helpful if we can all get our posts to help the man and his family get his dream vessel to join all of us next year! Whatever you go with I promise you will be happy, I know I am Hehehe.

I think the best thing to do is go demo your choices before you make the decision. I am sure there are many members who have both sytles to have you take a look if the dealer does not want to. If you were in OK, I would be more than happy to show you what Yamaha's are about nowdays.

H & H in OKC is the place that has the Yamahas and the Supreme I am looking at , and the NXT is at Grand.

 

[007]

@Chris Oneslager, you need to research what @bobbie is doing with the 212 surfwise, it's quite impressive. The boat also has a pretty solid wakeboard wake for a jet boat. I've spent some time behind one. You'll lack some adjustability for both, but for an all around it's a great boat.

 

[FloJet]

Good ole H&H. Good deal. That's where I got my AR. Well sounds like you are by where I am. Well if you ever want to check out the Yamahas, we go to Thunderbird pretty much every weekend we can. Rick and the others at H&H should not steer you wrong.

 

[Chris Oneslager]

Ok all..great advice and I am becoming a more informed buyer. Thanks. Starting to grasp the differences between the Yamaha and purpose boats like the NXT or Supreme. Going to throw a new wrinkle in. While searching the web, found the Regal 2100 RS Surf. Seems to get the benefits of surf as well as the benefits of and I/O and multi purpose hull design. It uses the new Volvo penta forward design. http://www.volvopentaforwarddrive.com/

Thoughts?

 

[OperationROL]

Saw that last year and think the concept is great. Hopefully turning the prop provides enough distance from the rider that it makes it safe. I believe a Vdrive is still more forward that that, but that may be forward enough to surf safely.

The deep V will be good for recreational boating but the wake will be closer to a Yamaha than a purpose built boat.

 

[007]

Going to throw a new wrinkle in. While searching the web, found the Regal 2100 RS Surf. Seems to get the benefits of surf as well as the benefits of and I/O and multi purpose hull design. It uses the new Volvo penta forward design. http://www.volvopentaforwarddrive.com/

Thoughts?

Oh I'm torn on this one. I'm a preacher when it comes to NOT surfing behind anything other than an inboard or a jet. Just google surfing behind an i/o accidents and you won't eat lunch for awhile.

So, how does that change with the drive turned around? I am not sure yet. I think the prop is still further back that an inboard, but is it as safe or is it more dangerous than an inboard? I really don't know. For an inboard you have the rudder between you, for this technology you have the bulk of the drive between the surfer and the prop.

One thing is for sure, its a disruptor in the marketplace. I haven't seen a wave good enough out of one that makes me say "Oooooo! time to go back to an i/o", but it puts a little buzz and umph back into the tradition i/o market. The other question, from a guy who has had major collision damage on the river, is "am I more likely to tear the prop up with it in front?". Again, I don't know but my gut is that makes the boat a little more vulnerable to underwater objects and beaching wear and tear.