Aargh... Milkshake Engine Oil... WTF? (Port Engine, 2016 AR240, ~300 hrs)

[buckbuck]

That video was extremely informative. But let's hope that is not the issue.

 

[meaningreen]

as of this morning the boat is in a custody of Saint Charles Boat and Motor,

Totally off topic, but do you any good sales people at that dealer you would recommend working with. They have some used boats I'm looking at.

 

[BigAbe75]

Totally off topic, but do you any good sales people at that dealer you would recommend working with. They have some used boats I'm looking at.

Jerry is the goto guy for sure. He runs the service dept day to day, but also sells (sold me mine). And, I believe he does all of the new customer orientation after the sale.

Terry is a good sales guy, too. Older guy, but know his stuff. He’s been selling boats for 30 years, if I remember right.

Whole team is very low pressure. Come and go as you please, let us know if you have questions and when you’re ready to talk numbers kind of place.

 

[swatski]

Totally off topic, but do you any good sales people at that dealer you would recommend working with. They have some used boats I'm looking at.

Totally agree with @BigAbe75. Solid team.
Knowledgeable and honest.

EDIT: Terry has been our sales person, great guy, no bs, tells you what he knows and if he doesn't know something - very refreshing. Jerry, the co-owner, I'm convinced he lives there, lol. He also runs the shop part.

EDIT 2: This board/forum is just so dammm addictive. I tried to stay away, and then... look what happened to my boat, within few short weeks!
Now I'm gonna be afraid to take another hiatus. If I do, will my toyota stop running or something, lol.

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[GTBRMC]

Hey, tough to see this, @swatski

Best of luck and keep us informed

 

[Liveto99]

Did u use Salt away a few times after being in salt water and leave it in the engine block? Salt away is an acid, acid eats aluminum I’m wondering if when people leave Salt away in the cooling passages whether it’s doing more damage and actually eating the aluminum away?
2+2=4 just saying...

 

[haknslash]

Did u use Salt away a few times after being in salt water and leave it in the engine block? Salt away is an acid, acid eats aluminum I’m wondering if when people leave Salt away in the cooling passages whether it’s doing more damage and actually eating the aluminum away?
2+2=4 just saying...

Nah that stuff is fine. It’s a mild acid and safe for aluminum, magnesium and other metals. In fact it’s made to me left in there....

11. It is not necessary to flush your engine with fresh water before flushing it with Salt-Away. Fresh water does not add to the quality of
the flush, but it does add time. Avoid rinsing your engine with fresh water after the Salt-Away application. Leaving Salt-Away in your engine protects against rusting and corroding, and breaks apart salt accumulation. Use remainder of Salt-Away in reservoir to wash salt off your boat and other equipment. Excellent for flushing salt out of trailer brakes.

 

[swatski]

Did u use Salt away a few times after being in salt water and leave it in the engine block? Salt away is an acid, acid eats aluminum I’m wondering if when people leave Salt away in the cooling passages whether it’s doing more damage and actually eating the aluminum away?
2+2=4 just saying...

I have been using salt away, actually, once in a while even in fresh water - for example when I change oil, on a hose. I have considered its potential corrosive effects and conclusion is those would be minor to nonexistent in contact with aluminum alloy. The active ingredient is sulfamic acid - which I also have used in home brewing equipment, a standard cleaner there, where it acts as a mild ionic detergent. Sea water is way harsher.
I think this: If the salt away cases damage to our boats - we are in big trouble! Lol.

Honestly, I kind of hope it’s something stupid that I did which could be avoidable. For example if oil cooler is cracked because water froze in there, I would know what to do in the future.

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[Select Friends]

Totally off topic, but do you any good sales people at that dealer you would recommend working with. They have some used boats I'm looking at.

I bought @BigAbe75 's trade in from Terry. He was nice to work with and low pressure. Almost too low pressure, I had to keep the pressure on them to get the boat ready for me in a timely manor. Jerry was super helpful even after the sale. He made sure to make time for me when I had questions after the sale. If I could go back I would rather work with Jerry. He's more 'matter of fact'.

 

[Cambo]

Honestly, I kind of hope it’s something stupid that I did which could be avoidable. For example if oil cooler is cracked because water froze in there, I would know what to do in the future.

The water should drain out to the lower portion of the motor and the exhaust. When you checked the oil was it much higher on the dip stick ? Did you notice the engine running rough . I hope its something simple but to shine some light on the situation my friend had the exhaust manifold failure. Ingested salt water twice into the oil the local mechanic wanted to tear down the motor and rebuild $$$ he changed the manifold didn't go for the rebuild and it had no noticeable impact on the motor I think he has put over 80hrs since the issue. This was the MR1 that revs to 10200 rpm.

One more way that water could make it to the oil could be be from loading ballast, I know there was some chatter on this a while back but these motors sit very low in the boat there is a water lock but the rocking could potentially get water up to the same point were the manifold breached. Not likely but there is potential. I'm not even sure how the cylinder doesn't hydro lock from the hole in the exhaust manifold the water gets past the rings and into the oil when the exhaust manifold is breached. Hoping for the simplest solution to your issue

 

[swatski]

The water should drain out to the lower portion of the motor and the exhaust. When you checked the oil was it much higher on the dip stick ? Did you notice the engine running rough . I hope its something simple but to shine some light on the situation my friend had the exhaust manifold failure. Ingested salt water twice into the oil the local mechanic wanted to tear down the motor and rebuild $$$ he changed the manifold didn't go for the rebuild and it had no noticeable impact on the motor I think he has put over 80hrs since the issue. This was the MR1 that revs to 10200 rpm.

One more way that water could make it to the oil could be be from loading ballast, I know there was some chatter on this a while back but these motors sit very low in the boat there is a water lock but the rocking could potentially get water up to the same point were the manifold breached. Not likely but there is potential. I'm not even sure how the cylinder doesn't hydro lock from the hole in the exhaust manifold the water gets past the rings and into the oil when the exhaust manifold is breached. Hoping for the simplest solution to your issue

Great points!
So - if it indeed were an exhaust manifold crack - pressure test would show it, I guess? I’m not sure how that part of testing works.

At this point, I just hope that the mechanic looking at it, who is supposedly one of the most experienced Yamaha techs anywhere, will be able to diagnose the issue, or issues!

I‘m just hoping for a conclusive diagnosis. I use this boat a lot, ride pretty hard. I have really enjoyed it, for the most part, and would like to continue using it but need to trust the motors, with some pretty long-distance cruising reliability is paramount.

Regarding surfing, I hear you loud and clear!

this topic came up in several discussions in the past, I too have been impressed these engines take what they take, with our boats sometimes ballasted/listed to the extent were the lower platform corner sits inches under water. They seem to keep going. But perhaps there are limits.

In this context, I had been paying close attention to oil and have not noticed anything worrisome about it during the current or past seasons of surfing.

One issue has been rough starts on the surf side (after a long pause with engines off) - that has happened repeatedly during surf sessions. I’d thought those are likely caused by back pressure and water buildup in the exhaust water boxes. I have not seen any evidence of water intrusion and never seen any visible changes in oil appearance, other than my oil tends to darken between normal oil changes.

Now what I found this week - this is completely different all together!

The affected engine still started and restarted as normal, and I did not notice anything different before the alarm went off. Oil looks like a frothy smear on that dipstick so I don’t know what the actual level would be when settled down.

Again - thank you - appreciate your comments very much!

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[JDRacing]

Swatski, so sorry to hear about all of this.

One thing I took note of in the video you linked above was the comment that the head bolts on one side were loose. Putting aside for a moment how they got that way, if engine compression is pushing against a head where the bolts on one side have come loose, I can certainly imagine that tweaking the head enough to crack it at the bolts which are still properly torqued. Aluminum is very brittle, as you know, and would not tolerate any amount of twisting without relieving via cracking. Understanding that our HO engines are not boosted, there's still a fair amount of pressure pushing against the underside of the head.

Wondering if maybe, as a first order of business, the dealer might check the torque of all the head bolts on your engine to see if any are loose. If they are, we should all be running out to our boats with a torque wrench immediately.

Now I'm wondering how they would get that way as reported in the video. Quality head bolts shouldn't stretch with the kinds of pressures our engines, even the boosted ones, are generating. . . .

Jeff

 

[Cambo]

Great points!
So - if it indeed were an exhaust manifold crack - pressure test would show it, I guess? I’m not sure how that part of testing works.

Leak down test is what they are most likely going to do this will not show the exhaust manifold issue, visual inspection will be needed for that. The leak down test could show if the cylinder head is cracked.

 

[swatski]

Leak down test is what they are most likely going to do this will not show the exhaust manifold issue, visual inspection will be needed for that. The leak down test could show a if the cylinder head is cracked.

That's what I was afraid you would say.
I guess we will see, hope this is not going to turn into a "chase" with multiple possibilities requiring iterative see trials/testing.

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[swatski]

Swatski, so sorry to hear about all of this.

One thing I took note of in the video you linked above was the comment that the head bolts on one side were loose. Putting aside for a moment how they got that way, if engine compression is pushing against a head where the bolts on one side have come loose, I can certainly imagine that tweaking the head enough to crack it at the bolts which are still properly torqued. Aluminum is very brittle, as you know, and would not tolerate any amount of twisting without relieving via cracking. Understanding that our HO engines are not boosted, there's still a fair amount of pressure pushing against the underside of the head.

Wondering if maybe, as a first order of business, the dealer might check the torque of all the head bolts on your engine to see if any are loose. If they are, we should all be running out to our boats with a torque wrench immediately.

Now I'm wondering how they would get that way as reported in the video. Quality head bolts shouldn't stretch with the kinds of pressures our engines, even the boosted ones, are generating. . . .

Jeff

Well, I'm traveling and can;t visit with them to check on this right now, and I wouldn't venture to start giving them advice over the phone.
However, I will run this question by the mechanic when I see them, if he is a good as they all say he is - he will know the answer.

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[swatski]

Quick update, guys, not a whole lot of info but writing it down before I forget. And it is interesting - sounds like I might have screwed up, royally.

Got a phone call from Jerry (the dealer) this morning, unfortunately I was standing in a loud spot, traveling, and couldn't find a quiet one so I might have missed some of his words, but here is the gist of what I got:

1. the major point: was very concerned with the exhaust parts/ducts routed in the bilge area - some plastic parts being either melted or heat-deformed (I did not get that part of the conversation completely but will ask again and post all the details); I explained I boat in very shallow areas a lot, more than most YJB owners will ever see, and frequently run over very shallow and silty bottom - that could explain cooling issues - possible blockage with sediment (from the river?); in addition we surf and run the risk of at least some cavitation/ventilation in the process - as much as I tend to have my pumps sealed/ported really well
2. I have installed (stuffed) plenty of "soundproofing" insulation/foam inside the bilge and bulkheads; apparently some of it was melted/caked around the exhaust parts in the bilge; Jerry was not impressed with the idea of stuffing the bilge space around exhaust water boxes with plastic insulation... (he didn't say it, but sounded like: "what the hell were you thinking?" - stuffing all the foam down there)
3. He was wondering what kind of oil I have been using (the answer was Amsoil Marine 10W40), the stuff in the port engine was looking very bad - like tar - and difficult to flush, he said the mechanic was still working on it after 4 oil changes and they used some diesel to help; they will keep at it until it's clean-ish; Once that's done they will have to put this on hold, and finish all his other winterization projects int he shop, before getting back to my boat; totally understandable of course, they were gracious enough to tend to the boat right away to save the engine.

In short summary - while there is no diagnosis and it is very very early in the process, a picture that emerges indicates a possibility of some kind of cooling restriction - either due to mud/silt accumulation inside the cooling system and/or restricting water flow in the exhaust cooling passages and/or restriction of heat exchange due to inappropriate/excessive (DIY) insulation around the exhaust elements in the bilge.

Needless to say, I feel frustrated (and possibly incredibly dumb!), but at least we may be making some progress.
I hope there will be conclusive findings. No idea, yet, how this is going to end!
Jerry was careful to point out he had no specific or conclusive findings at this point. But there may be some clues emerging, if I understood him correctly.

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[Scottie]

Very interesting. Thanks for the updates. Hoping for the best!

 

[tdonoughue]

Before you kick yourself too hard, get the full update and story...

Thinking good thoughts for you and the boat.

 

[Scottintexas]

I agree let's get the final story before we feel guilty

4 oil changes and still not right?? Note to self, if ever get milkshake oil spend the extra 30 minutes and pull the bottom plug for a complete oil drain

Only because i trust you and your diligence, any chance of sabotage-vandals at your marina? We've seen many milkshake engines never heard of tar like oil with the milkshake

A good lessen for everyone to take five minutes and check your oil every outing to help identify and mitigate any issues



.

 

[swatski]

I agree let's get the final story before we feel guilty

4 oil changes and still not right?? Note to self, if ever get milkshake oil spend the extra 30 minutes and pull the bottom plug for a complete oil drain

Only because i trust you and your diligence, any chance of sabotage-vandals at your marina? We've seen many milkshake engines never heard of tar like oil with the milkshake

A good lessen for everyone to take five minutes and check your oil every outing to help identify and mitigate any issues



.

Calls for patience and restrain from jumping to conclusions are warranted, I might have misheard parts of it. Basically, the oil looked poor and after 4(?) changes was still not clear.
No chance any foul play was involved. Zero.
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