The Texas School Shooting

[AZMark]

An AR15 is not an assault rifle. It might look like one. It might function in a similar manner to one. It isn't one, full stop.

I’m sure you’re definitionally correct. You win

Call it what you want. It’s a gun made for blasting people quick in a highly accurate and controlled manner.

 

[steveinmd]

Someone commented earlier that an AR is high powered rifle. Now I'm reading comments that it's easy to shoot and controlled. Which one is it?

 

[jcb1977]

What are you talking about? Black? Hunting rifles don’t all have the same type of recoil system.

read it again.....the difference between a semi-auto AR15 and a semi-auto traditional hunting rifle is the AR 15 is black and has a pistol grip....no other difference between the two. Not sure how I can spell this out any better for you.

rifles come in many different actions (not recoil systems)....there's bolt, lever, pump, etc. The uneducated like to call AR15 assault rifles when in reality they are no different than any other semi-auto hunting rifle besides being black and a pistol grip. even the typical .223 caliber of a AR 15 is relatively mild compared to 30-30, 30.06, 308 hunting calibers. AR-15's do not have a faster firing rate than any semi-auto hunting rifle.

 

[jcb1977]

I’m sure you’re definitionally correct. You win

Call it what you want. It’s a gun made for blasting people quick in a highly accurate and controlled manner.

Wrong again.

 

[AZMark]

read it again.....the difference between a semi-auto AR15 and a semi-auto traditional hunting rifle is the AR 15 is black and has a pistol grip....no other difference between the two. Not sure how I can spell this out any better for you.

rifles come in many different actions (not recoil systems)....there's bolt, lever, pump, etc. The uneducated like to call AR15 assault rifles when in reality they are no different than any other semi-auto hunting rifle besides being black and a pistol grip. even the typical .223 caliber of a AR 15 is relatively mild compared to 30-30, 30.06, 308 hunting calibers. AR-15's do not have a faster firing rate than any semi-auto hunting rifle.

I have shot every gun you just listed and I know how much more controlled an AR can be. You don’t need to explain anything.

You all are sounding like a politician’s press conference.

 

[zipper]

read it again.....the difference between a semi-auto AR15 and a semi-auto traditional hunting rifle is the AR 15 is black and has a pistol grip....no other difference between the two. Not sure how I can spell this out any better for you.

rifles come in many different actions (not recoil systems)....there's bolt, lever, pump, etc. The uneducated like to call AR15 assault rifles when in reality they are no different than any other semi-auto hunting rifle besides being black and a pistol grip. even the typical .223 caliber of a AR 15 is relatively mild compared to 30-30, 30.06, 308 hunting calibers. AR-15's do not have a faster firing rate than any semi-auto hunting rifle.

Don’t forget the size of clip. Hunting clips for my .308 Win. in Vt. are limited to qty. 3 plus 1 in the chamber.

 

[jcb1977]

I have shot every gun you just listed and I know how much more controlled an AR can be. You don’t need to explain anything.

You all are sounding like a politician’s press conference.

LOL.....more controlled. I never heard one that one before.

 

[AZMark]

LOL.....more controlled. I never heard one that one before.

I’m literally not sure if you’ve shot the weapons your speaking about now.

It was a gun designed for war that is now semi auto only. It was not designed to be a long range, aim carefully and shoot once or twice at a large animal hunting rifle.

Just stick to the script, it’s fine.

 

[jcb1977]

Don’t forget the size of clip. Hunting clips for my .308 Win. in Vt. are limited to qty. 3 plus 1 in the chamber.

your right about magazine capacity....the AR's tend to come with higher capacity magazines but I have several ranch rifles chambered in .308 and .223 that have high capacity magazines for them. I even have a Scout bolt action rifle that has an option for a high capacity magazine so it's not a feature unique to AR-15's.

my point being banning AR-15's or what some people call "assault rifles" would do nothing to solve the issue since there is no effective difference between them and any other semi-auto hunting rifle. there's a misunderstanding that people think AR stands for assault rifle....it stands for Armalite- a brand name of a manufacturer.

 

[jcb1977]

I’m literally not sure if you’ve shot the weapons your speaking about now.

It was a gun designed for war that is now semi auto only. It was not designed to be a long range, aim carefully and shoot once or twice at a large animal hunting rifle.

Just stick to the script, it’s fine.

I own rifles in all of the calibers I mentioned above and am an avid hunter and shooter.

So educate me please, what feature on the AR-15 platform or the .223 caliber makes it designed for war vs. any hunting rifle? or for more control? or for a faster rate of fire? or adept at short distances vs long range?

I can't wait to hear this.

 

[Beachbummer]

This is the wrong direction for the conversation in my humble opinion. Those unfamiliar with weapons are not articulating their desired restrictions in a way that makes sense to gun enthusiast and owners.

Instead I ask:

From those that are NOT familiar with guns but want changes... What are the OK features in your mind vs. The bad/war/too powerful weapon???? Maybe that helps grasp the point trying to be made.

How bad/crappy/less powerful should it be so it's "ok"?.

Honest question.

 

[Scottintexas]

I wonder if Ukraine had a "gun violence problem" if Russia would have invaded ?

 

[jcb1977]

This is the wrong direction of the conversation.

From those that are NOT familiar with guns... What are the OK features in your mind vs. The bad/war/too powerful weapon???? Maybe that helps grasp the point trying to be made.

How bad/crappy/less powerful should it be so it's "ok"?.

Honest question.

My point is simply that banning AR-15's or semi-auto "assault rifles" will have zero affect on the problem. Banning all guns is just not practical or going to happen in the US. If banning high capacity magazines would save lives I would be on board with it, but frankly I don't think it would matter. Changing clips only takes a matter of seconds.

The only practical solution in my opinion is greater security at schools....the low hanging fruit would be locking doors/fences/exit doors in each class room, armed guards, etc. maybe arming teachers but honestly not 100% sure on that.

Added background checks if fine by me, but that doesn't solve it either I don't think. Most of these shooters were able to legally purchase them and pass current background checks.

Red flag laws maybe an option as well if it's properly enforced but I don't think that solves a majority of the occurrences either.

 

[jcb1977]

This is the wrong direction for the conversation in my humble opinion. Those unfamiliar with weapons are not articulating their desired restrictions in a way that makes sense to gun enthusiast and owners.

Instead I ask:

From those that are NOT familiar with guns but want changes... What are the OK features in your mind vs. The bad/war/too powerful weapon???? Maybe that helps grasp the point trying to be made.

How bad/crappy/less powerful should it be so it's "ok"?.

Honest question.

and from what I've read and saw so far on the news, that police response in Texas was pitiful.....after Columbine, I thought all police in the US had a policy of going into the school right away, no waiting for back up. Get your asses in there and protect those kids. if what they are reporting is true, and this idiot had 40minutes to an hour in that school, every one of those officers should be fired for cowardice.

 

[Jim_in_Delaware]

And you are missing my point. While active shooter deaths are truly a tragedy, the amount of death pails in comparison to Fentanyl poisoning. But which receives all the press and political attention? Look at the numbers dude. Our media gets the sheep all wrapped around the axle about active shooter deaths but at the same time they don’t give 2 shits about the thousands that die every month to this crap being imported across an open and unsecured border. That’s my point.

This post got me wondering, what are the latest numbers for these deaths?

From the CDC:

DRUG TYPE	(DEATHS 2021)	(DEATHS 2020)
Synthetic Opioids (fentanyl)	71,238	57,834
Psychostimulants (meth)	32,856	24,576
Cocaine	24,538	19,927
Natural/semi-synthetic (prescription)	13,503	13,722

Gun related deaths from Pew:

What share of U.S. gun deaths are murders and what share are suicides?
Though they tend to get less public attention than gun-related murders, suicides have long accounted for the majority of U.S. gun deaths. In 2020, 54% of all gun-related deaths in the U.S. were suicides (24,292), while 43% were murders (19,384), according to the CDC. The remaining gun deaths that year were unintentional (535), involved law enforcement (611) or had undetermined circumstances (400).

How many people are killed in mass shootings in the U.S. every year?
The FBI collects data on “active shooter incidents,” which it defines as “one or more individuals actively engaged in killing or attempting to kill people in a populated area.” Using the FBI’s definition, 38 people – excluding the shooters – died in such incidents in 2020.

The Gun Violence Archive, an online database of gun violence incidents in the U.S., defines mass shootings as incidents in which four or more people are shot, even if no one was killed (again excluding the shooters). Using this definition, 513 people died in these incidents in 2020.

It’s important to note that the FBI’s statistics do not capture the details on all gun murders in the U.S. each year. The FBI’s data is based on information voluntarily submitted by police departments around the country, and not all agencies participate or provide complete information each year.


My personal opinion is that we could do a better job at preventing deaths from BOTH overdoses AND guns.

Jim

 

[Beachbummer]

Police presence is not the word, perhaps
*police action"

I hear they were plenty present, just not in "action".

Unrelated topic, also probably too political, but related. We may need more police, but we absolutely need way better police. Better training and higher pay is needed to demand "protect and serve" as the default police response and expectation, and not, "crap, I hope my police interaction is not a dumpster fire" that is the more common thought today.

I'm certain burnout is a huge factor, generally dealing and exposed to the worse of society, so that has to be very tough.

I have had interactions with true professionals, I know they are out there, but how do we incentivize the good ones and perhaps ensure the ones that in a school shooting "pick up their own kids and leave and block other parents from doing the same" are eventually weeded out?

Hard problem to solve. Right now the population does not believe they are getting their money's worth. And police feel undervalued so morale is low, self fulfilling the cycle of despair towards crappy interactions and poor response.
All related.

 

[CanTex]

My point is simply that banning AR-15's or semi-auto "assault rifles" will have zero affect on the problem. Banning all guns is just not practical or going to happen in the US. If banning high capacity magazines would save lives I would be on board with it, but frankly I don't think it would matter. Changing clips only takes a matter of seconds.

The only practical solution in my opinion is greater security at schools....the low hanging fruit would be locking doors/fences/exit doors in each class room, armed guards, etc. maybe arming teachers but honestly not 100% sure on that.

Added background checks if fine by me, but that doesn't solve it either I don't think. Most of these shooters were able to legally purchase them and pass current background checks.

Red flag laws maybe an option as well if it's properly enforced but I don't think that solves a majority of the occurrences either.

Will additional security at schools prevent the incident or move the location? Like many others, I'm struggling to determine the root cause of such events. Don't recall these incidents occurring in 70's, 80's, & 90's?
Something has changed that triggers these events, I'd put my tax dollars towards determining that before the immediate knee jerk reaction of turning schools into prisons or confiscating fire arms.

 

[BlkGS]

and from what I've read and saw so far on the news, that police response in Texas was pitiful.....after Columbine, I thought all police in the US had a policy of going into the school right away, no waiting for back up. Get your asses in there and protect those kids. if what they are reporting is true, and this idiot had 40minutes to an hour in that school, every one of those officers should be fired for cowardice.

While I don't disagree with the overall sentiments...
You can't fire someone for cowardice, and they were following orders. The commanding officer got the call so incredibly wrong. I expect a full inquiry to how they arrived at that decision, and them to be held accountable. But the officers were following orders and protocols. You can however, fire someone for not following orders and protocols.

There is a balance here, you don't want to send Leo's in 1 by 1 without a plan to get cut down like waves of enemies in a video game. Waiting and doing nothing is also not the right course of action.

All this said, I'm sure every death weighs on that commanding officer. That, and all the car chair after the fact quarterbacing isn't bringing any of those innocent children back though. I think it's reasonable to look back and learn from the mistakes that were made to try to prevent those mistakes in the future. Had the school been wired with cameras the Leo's had immediate access to for instance, this all could have been handled quicker. We have the technology, the fact that we aren't using and integrating it is beyond absurd.

 

[BlkGS]

Will additional security at schools prevent the incident or move the location? Like many others, I'm struggling to determine the root cause of such events. Don't recall these incidents occurring in 70's, 80's, & 90's?
Something has changed that triggers these events, I'd put my tax dollars towards determining that before the immediate knee jerk reaction of turning schools into prisons or confiscating fire arms.

The level of media coverage has changed dramatically. When bad thi GS happened then, you could read about it in the news paper once per day, or maybe see it on the evening news. Now you're drowned by coverage on TV, internet, 24 hours a day, whether you want it or not. I think we know about bad shit happening a lot more and a lot faster now.

 

[jcb1977]

While I don't disagree with the overall sentiments...
You can't fire someone for cowardice, and they were following orders. The commanding officer got the call so incredibly wrong. I expect a full inquiry to how they arrived at that decision, and them to be held accountable. But the officers were following orders and protocols. You can however, fire someone for not following orders and protocols.

There is a balance here, you don't want to send Leo's in 1 by 1 without a plan to get cut down like waves of enemies in a video game. Waiting and doing nothing is also not the right course of action.

All this said, I'm sure every death weighs on that commanding officer. That, and all the car chair after the fact quarterbacing isn't bringing any of those innocent children back though. I think it's reasonable to look back and learn from the mistakes that were made to try to prevent those mistakes in the future. Had the school been wired with cameras the Leo's had immediate access to for instance, this all could have been handled quicker. We have the technology, the fact that we aren't using and integrating it is beyond absurd.

I hear what your saying but when kids are being shot, you get in there regardless of your orders.
I’m now convinced we need a congressional hearing with every officer on-site answering questions about there actions. Public humiliation so this sort of response never happens again.

you keep sending cops in there to die until shooter is dead. Period. Those kids are completely helpless.